2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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Jolle
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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Everybody with a bit of sense knew RedBull was going to be a big contender for the prizes in 08/09, they had the most successful ingredient of F1. Adrian Newey.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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ClarkBT11 wrote:Alonso stated" my team boss stated in China, saying that they weren’t racing against Raikkonen but against me, was a declaration of intent."
The FIA bowed to Alonso’s demands and appointed a steward at Interlagos to keep an eye on the McLaren pit during qualifying. He found nothing

Alonso needed an excuse why a rookie could beat the two time world champion on what grounds do you define huge team support. Alonso's....
So when FIA has to put a steward inside a team what you get from that is, "hey that steward did found nothing so the team is perfect" :wtf: :shock: #-o

You´d need to be a really stupid human to make something illegal in front of a steward. If Alonso asked for a steward it was not to try that steward proving McLaren favouritism, but to stop McLaren favouritism. It is obvious for any half-wise person McLaren would do nothing with a steward inside their box, and that was exactly Alonso´s intention


What most people got from that is far from your conclusion, what most people got is "hey what´s happening inside McLaren to force FIA to put a steward inside a team to ensure there´s no favouritism" If it would have been a bold an absurd demand from Alonso, FIA would have ignore him. But it was too obvious for anyone without a McLaren/Lewis bias

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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Jolle wrote:Everybody with a bit of sense knew RedBull was going to be a big contender for the prizes in 08/09, they had the most successful ingredient of F1. Adrian Newey.
So you did bet and earn some money? If it was that obvious I guess you took advantage of that obvious prediction, didn´t you?

Jolle
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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Andres125sx wrote:
ClarkBT11 wrote:Alonso stated" my team boss stated in China, saying that they weren’t racing against Raikkonen but against me, was a declaration of intent."
The FIA bowed to Alonso’s demands and appointed a steward at Interlagos to keep an eye on the McLaren pit during qualifying. He found nothing

Alonso needed an excuse why a rookie could beat the two time world champion on what grounds do you define huge team support. Alonso's....
So when FIA has to put a steward inside a team what you get from that is, "hey that steward did found nothing so the team is perfect" :wtf: :shock: #-o

You´d need to be a really stupid human to make something illegal in front of a steward. If Alonso asked for a steward it was not to try that steward proving McLaren favouritism, but to stop McLaren favouritism. It is obvious for any half-wise person McLaren would do nothing with a steward inside their box, and that was exactly Alonso´s intention


What most people got from that is far from your conclusion, what most people got is "hey what´s happening inside McLaren to force FIA to put a steward inside a team to ensure there´s no favouritism" If it would have been a bold an absurd demand from Alonso, FIA would have ignore him. But it was too obvious for anyone without a McLaren/Lewis bias
Could it be possible that Alonso's feeling of entitlement and his personality were the basis of this problem?

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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Jolle wrote: Looks like when it's not going his way, he gets openly critical about the team and plays the blame game. This costed his place with McLaren and had to drive a Renault for two years again
Please do not ignore facts, Alonso had a contract with McLaren for 2008 season. Fact. If he drove for Renault is was only because he wanted to. Nothing did cost him his place in McLaren, with a contract you can stay there even if the team do not want you there.

But he did prefer driving a poor Renault rather than driving the best car. That speaks itself about McLaren favouritism towards Lewis.

As McLaren team orders in 2008 do, when they forced Kovalainen to let Lewis pass several times even in first half of the season, something not even Ferrari has ever done (they always wait until the #2 can´t fight for the title before providing TOs). But McLaren didn´t wait for Kova to be out of the fight, they provided TOs from day 1

But people still keep repeating McLaren is the most fair team with their drivers and they never favour any driver #-o

It has traditionally been true, but as always, there´s some exceptions. This is F1, marketing is very important, and McLaren needed a british champion after decades without one. If it was Dennis bet (he was paying Lewis career since he was 12), and on his rookie season, that would have been pefect for them.


Thinking politics don´t play a role in F1 is the most naive thinking any F1 fan can have
Last edited by Andres125sx on 18 Jul 2016, 12:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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Jolle wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
ClarkBT11 wrote:Alonso stated" my team boss stated in China, saying that they weren’t racing against Raikkonen but against me, was a declaration of intent."
The FIA bowed to Alonso’s demands and appointed a steward at Interlagos to keep an eye on the McLaren pit during qualifying. He found nothing

Alonso needed an excuse why a rookie could beat the two time world champion on what grounds do you define huge team support. Alonso's....
So when FIA has to put a steward inside a team what you get from that is, "hey that steward did found nothing so the team is perfect" :wtf: :shock: #-o

You´d need to be a really stupid human to make something illegal in front of a steward. If Alonso asked for a steward it was not to try that steward proving McLaren favouritism, but to stop McLaren favouritism. It is obvious for any half-wise person McLaren would do nothing with a steward inside their box, and that was exactly Alonso´s intention


What most people got from that is far from your conclusion, what most people got is "hey what´s happening inside McLaren to force FIA to put a steward inside a team to ensure there´s no favouritism" If it would have been a bold an absurd demand from Alonso, FIA would have ignore him. But it was too obvious for anyone without a McLaren/Lewis bias
Could it be possible that Alonso's feeling of entitlement and his personality were the basis of this problem?
Yes, and also Pluto and Mars alignment, but there´s no evidence pointing in that direction

Specially when you see they never give him any priority and there was no problem (Alonso accepted equal treatment) until Lewis tried to be considered #1 in Hungary trying to stop first for a second time in a row, instead of the alternating order they all agreed at the beginning of the season.


Basically Mclaren atmosphere was tense (as any team with both drivers fighting for the title) but good until Lewis tried to be #1. But people say it was Alonso demands to be #1 what caused the problems..... based on what? Facts prove the contrary

komninosm
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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henry wrote:
zac510 wrote:
henry wrote:"The driver must drive the car unaided"

So after this race a Mercedes engineer, not the driver, analyses what happened with car 6's gearbox. He realises that there are some tell tale symptoms that can identify the problem. A software engineer, not the driver, writes some code to detect the situation and put a message on the steering wheel display about the need to do a chassis reset. Better still the code tells the driver a reset is coming, does it and reprograms the shift sequence to 6-8 8-6.

Is the driver unaided?

Since the restriction of radio messages I have noticed an increase of complexity steering wheel displays as the teams get the car to give the driver information he previously got from his race engineer. So we get a small arms race. My on-car data processing engineer is better than yours. Ah but my UI designer is streets ahead. Meanwhile the driver takes the plaudits.

It's a team sport. Increasingly so. If the FIA don't want that then we need to go back to a period when engineering wasn't important. Horses and chariots anyone?
I think that is perfectly acceptable. Programming better logic and automation into the system is the same as building a better engine or suspension part and if one team can do that better than the other, more podiums to them.

I guess the teams themselves are massively scared about the impact of a false negative signal causing the car to stop or slow signficantly, so are preferring to keep the driver/engineer in the loop instead of going to full automation.

We'd be better taking this discussion back to: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=24212
I agree it is acceptable.

My point is that the driver is assisted whether it is automation or a conversation with his race engineer.

The teams have now established the cost of keeping the driver/race engineer in the loop. It's 10 seconds. They can factor this into their evaluations of whether best to automate or take a penalty in order to get the car to the finish.

Either way this incident shows clearly that the radio silence rules exist purely to introduce chance and controversy into the races. The pretext that they respond to a fans' desire for no coaching from race engineers is just that. An excuse to spice up the show and keep social media buzzing.

I raised this same issue in the thread you point to. No one wanted to discuss it there, so I raised it here where it seemed appropriate.
I agree, the radio ban is stupid, like team orders ban.
It has to also go away. Either completely, or limit it to no assistance on exact breakpoint on a turn and such very specific info.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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BTW, Alonso as a current two times WDC accepted equal treatment with a rookie. How many WDC do you think would have accepted equal treatment with a rookie in that same scenario?

But people keep talking about Alonso feeling of entitlement.... I guess that´s easier to accept specially for McLaren fans

komninosm
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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Andres125sx wrote:
Jolle wrote:
Andres125sx wrote: So when FIA has to put a steward inside a team what you get from that is, "hey that steward did found nothing so the team is perfect" :wtf: :shock: #-o

You´d need to be a really stupid human to make something illegal in front of a steward. If Alonso asked for a steward it was not to try that steward proving McLaren favouritism, but to stop McLaren favouritism. It is obvious for any half-wise person McLaren would do nothing with a steward inside their box, and that was exactly Alonso´s intention


What most people got from that is far from your conclusion, what most people got is "hey what´s happening inside McLaren to force FIA to put a steward inside a team to ensure there´s no favouritism" If it would have been a bold an absurd demand from Alonso, FIA would have ignore him. But it was too obvious for anyone without a McLaren/Lewis bias
Could it be possible that Alonso's feeling of entitlement and his personality were the basis of this problem?
Yes, and also Pluto and Mars alignment, but there´s no evidence pointing in that direction

Specially when you see they never give him any priority and there was no problem (Alonso accepted equal treatment) until Lewis tried to be considered #1 in Hungary trying to stop first for a second time in a row, instead of the alternating order they all agreed at the beginning of the season.


Basically Mclaren atmosphere was tense (as any team with both drivers fighting for the title) but good until Lewis tried to be #1. But people say it was Alonso demands to be #1 what caused the problems..... based on what? Facts prove the contrary
Your Alonso-fan-bias is showing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... _hamilton/
It seems to me Hamilton beating (even by 0 points, he still beat Alonso on tie breakers) (top form) Alonso in his ROOKIE year is clear indication Hamilton is one of the greats. Alonso has done a few questionable things on track, certainly not as dirty as Shchumacher, but still more than Hamilton. I'm no fan of Britain and Hamilton is the only English driver I've liked since the Lion Mansel who was cool by me for many reasons. I even dislike most of Hamilton's personality (ugh even Bieber, really ? ) and I only like him for his driving. It's just completely absurd to claim he's not one of the greats.

sosic2121
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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Andres, even when you're bashing my favourite team, I have choice but to agree with you 100%.
IMO, only driver that hasn't been lucky with predicting future was Schumacher. In 96 Ferrari was disaster. Only during 1999 Ferrari came close to Mclaren.

I believe lack of testing killed Ferrari.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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sosic2121 wrote:Andres, even when you're bashing my favourite team, I have choice but to agree with you 100%.
IMO, only driver that hasn't been lucky with predicting future was Schumacher. In 96 Ferrari was disaster. Only during 1999 Ferrari came close to Mclaren.

I believe lack of testing killed Ferrari.
MS wasn't lucky in predicting future? He clearly knew what he was undertaking and was clear that it was a long term project. He said the same about Mercedes in 2010 and he wasn't wrong either. I n1996, he announced that his target is to win 3 races and he did. He fought for championship in 1997 (won 5 races) and 1998 (won 6 races), though the cars weren't the fastest. He did fought. By 1996, he had Brawn and Rory on boarded from Benetton and the journey started. He probably would have won in 1999, if not for his accident.

lebesset
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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Andres125sx wrote:
Jolle wrote:
Andres125sx wrote: So when FIA has to put a steward inside a team what you get from that is, "hey that steward did found nothing so the team is perfect" :wtf: :shock: #-o

You´d need to be a really stupid human to make something illegal in front of a steward. If Alonso asked for a steward it was not to try that steward proving McLaren favouritism, but to stop McLaren favouritism. It is obvious for any half-wise person McLaren would do nothing with a steward inside their box, and that was exactly Alonso´s intention


What most people got from that is far from your conclusion, what most people got is "hey what´s happening inside McLaren to force FIA to put a steward inside a team to ensure there´s no favouritism" If it would have been a bold an absurd demand from Alonso, FIA would have ignore him. But it was too obvious for anyone without a McLaren/Lewis bias
Could it be possible that Alonso's feeling of entitlement and his personality were the basis of this problem?
Yes, and also Pluto and Mars alignment, but there´s no evidence pointing in that direction

Specially when you see they never give him any priority and there was no problem (Alonso accepted equal treatment) until Lewis tried to be considered #1 in Hungary trying to stop first for a second time in a row, instead of the alternating order they all agreed at the beginning of the season.


Basically Mclaren atmosphere was tense (as any team with both drivers fighting for the title) but good until Lewis tried to be #1. But people say it was Alonso demands to be #1 what caused the problems..... based on what? Facts prove the contrary
what's this about the FIA putting a steward into McLaren to ensure there was no favouritism ? the team can give favouritism to whichever driver they want , nothing in the rules that says they cannot !!! the truth is that McLaren agreed to ask for a steward [ spanish at that ] in an attempt to overcome alonso's paranoia about not being number 1
of course alonso trying to blackmail dennis really finished the whole thing ....for sure he wouldn't have hired alonso again if it wasn't part of the honda deal and honda agreeing to pay his salary
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

sosic2121
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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GPR-A wrote:
sosic2121 wrote:Andres, even when you're bashing my favourite team, I have choice but to agree with you 100%.
IMO, only driver that hasn't been lucky with predicting future was Schumacher. In 96 Ferrari was disaster. Only during 1999 Ferrari came close to Mclaren.

I believe lack of testing killed Ferrari.
MS wasn't lucky in predicting future? He clearly knew what he was undertaking and was clear that it was a long term project. He said the same about Mercedes in 2010 and he wasn't wrong either. I n1996, he announced that his target is to win 3 races and he did. He fought for championship in 1997 (won 5 races) and 1998 (won 6 races), though the cars weren't the fastest. He did fought. By 1996, he had Brawn and Rory on boarded from Benetton and the journey started. He probably would have won in 1999, if not for his accident.
I don't call that luck. I credit most of those results to MS.
If any other driver was in his place, he wouldn't come even close to Schumacher's results.
Also I believe his precision, hard work and understanding of the car helped hugely to develop cars.
I also believe he would be 99 champion if he didn't crash.

Jolle
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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GPR-A wrote:
sosic2121 wrote:Andres, even when you're bashing my favourite team, I have choice but to agree with you 100%.
IMO, only driver that hasn't been lucky with predicting future was Schumacher. In 96 Ferrari was disaster. Only during 1999 Ferrari came close to Mclaren.

I believe lack of testing killed Ferrari.
MS wasn't lucky in predicting future? He clearly knew what he was undertaking and was clear that it was a long term project. He said the same about Mercedes in 2010 and he wasn't wrong either. I n1996, he announced that his target is to win 3 races and he did. He fought for championship in 1997 (won 5 races) and 1998 (won 6 races), though the cars weren't the fastest. He did fought. By 1996, he had Brawn and Rory on boarded from Benetton and the journey started. He probably would have won in 1999, if not for his accident.
Not so luck but more a dedication of Ferrari and the right team (Brawn, Byrne, Todt and Schumacher) and a good cash flow to stop at nothing to become WC. the same kind of determination Mercedes saw with the rules of 2014. Chances like this don't come round every day, or even every few years. It was far from a leap into the unknown.

I also believe it wasn't his only option at the time. He still had some link to Mercedes at the time who would happily seen him return with them for a new superteam with McLaren.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

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Andres125sx wrote:
NathanOlder wrote:And people going on about being in the best car,

Its down to the driver to place himself in the best car available.
If Lewis has always had a good car as you guys say, then you are just paying him a massive compliment!
I´ve never considered predicting future as an important point for a race driver, but hey, you´re right, in F1 it proved to be very important :twisted: :lol:

Did you think in 2008-09 RBR would dominate F1? An almost new team with no F1 experience? No

Did you think in 2012-13 Mercedes would dominate F1? No

Do you think Honda will dominate in 2017-18? No :twisted:


F1 is too complicated to play sheer, some drivers are lucky with their decisions, some aren´t. But that´s irrelevant when talking about drivers talent.

Is Vettel a genius because he was in RBR when their dominance period started? Obviously no, he´s not, he was just lucky to be in the right place at the right moment. Same for Lewis with Mercedes, same for Button with Brawn...
NathanOlder wrote:I mean what IDIOT would leave a team that would win 3 races the following year, to go to a team that just about score 3 points!
An idiot who already have so much victories he´s not interested in race victories anymore because he´s only interested on title crowns

BTW, time is proving that idiot was right, Ferrari is unable to fight for titles to the point Vettel is already considering moving out of the red team. Is Vettel another idiot or simply Ferrari is a disaster?

Ferrari is still recolecting the fruits of past glories. Without those no top driver would want to drive for them. But that cannot last forever, I wonder what driver will they sign in next seasons, because I can´t see any Lewis, Alonso or Vettel signing for them again, they´ll be forced to sign some young driver like Sainz or similar
The last time Ferrari made a title winning car without the input of Michael Schumacher was 1979. So going to Ferrari is not a got idea. IMO. Vettel went there as he wanted away from Ricciardo and Fernando went there as it was a step up from Renault. All my opinion, cant see it any other way.
As for the Mclaren 2007 season, only Ron Fred and Lewis will surely know, but I heard Fernando asked Ron to slow Lewis down (give Fernando the upgrades first) which ron said no, and fernando spat his dummy out and told the FIA about Spygate and the rest is history. Like Fernandos titles.
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