2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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Vasconia
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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basti313 wrote: Well...these moves have always two sides: There are only few who do them (Ric, Ham, Ves...) and only few that "allow" them without crashing (Vet, Bot, Rai, Alo, But...). This has to come together so that we can see such a nice move. In other configurations like Ham-Ros, or anything with the blind guys like Ves, Nas, Kvy... we would see carbon parts flying.

But of course this is what makes the driver to a champion: "Try it and crash it or be behind" was the usual rule when approaching Senna or when Senna approached anyone else. Schumacher even decided a WC with that...he left the decision to Hill...either stay behind or crash it.
Indeed, those overtakes are the ones that make you a genious if they work or a crazy idiot if they dont. The other driver must be clean and not close the door when he realizes that the other driver is overtaking him. Or at least see him.

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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Schuttelberg wrote:2 points separate the first two guys in the World Championship, yet there is an inevitably about the driver's championship that most F1 fans feel.

Rosberg's 7 wins this year-

Australia - Hamilton falls away at the start.
Bahrain - Same as above, contact with Bottas and Ricciardo.
China - Hamilton started last due to mechanical error.
Russia - Hamilton starts 10th due to mechanical error.
Azerbaijan - Hamilton was awful during qualifying and started 10th.
Spa - Hamilton started last.
Monza - Hamilton botched up the start.

Rosberg has out-qualified Hamilton ON MERIT only at Hungary this year, by a mere tenth.

There is a lot of illusion that's sold that Rosberg is close to Hamilton. I have an immense amount of respect for Hamilton, but fact is that he's been a bit unlucky with a whole heap of mechanical failures and also been off the bottle in certain situations. If Hamilton gets his act together for the remaining 7 races, Rosberg doesn't have a prayer!
While I agree with all of the above, unfortunately, this is just a side effect of having a 2-way championship race. When one has trouble, the other is more or less guaranteed to take the win and with that, at least a 7 point swing in his favor. Take Belgium; Hamilton wasn't near the front and anyone in that other car would sleep walk it. Same thing the other way around too if Rosberg has the bad luck and starts further behind.

Sadly, F1 is so competitive that even a botched start as happened at Monza in Hamiltons case means that it's an impossibility to get a fighting chance of the win if you find yourself 10 seconds off the lead at any one point. A driver might be able to close such a gap, but even to have a fighting chance to pull off a pass in two identical cars, on similar strategies yields a too small time differential to have a realistic chance of pulling it off. The only hope for the driver who has fallen behind is to be gifted an advantage, either through circumstance (i.e. a safety car that nullifies the gaps) or alternate strategy that somehow ends up being the lucky strike. I haven't watched the race, but even if Hamilton had somehow found a way to make his tires do the impossible and close such a gap, he would then find himself eventually at the rear, in dirty air with tires no longer in a state that would give that edge to make an overtake realistic or achievable. In fact, the odds would be that the strategy would then be compromised, forcing another pitstop, compromising that position and to make matters worse, you will have also overused your components (relatively) over the races still to come where those very components will have to be used.

But apart from that, that slim chance of circumstance, you have tire wear forcing drivers to manage them excessively and also fuel to consider. And then of course engine and other components usage, power maps because their performance needs to be spread over multiple races.

I will have to watch the race - and I will eventually - but I do find it increasingly odd that this year, every time both Mercedes are on the front row, it's the car starting in position 2 who seems to have a better grip on starts. Is it because the car starting in position 1 is that few seconds longer completely still and waiting? Is it the pressure? Or is it simply a matter of luck to a certain degree because the line between perfect clutch temperature and perfect driver ability and anything other than that results in either good start and horrendous/bad start?

What ever it is; I think it's clear that the Mercedes is a unique car that suffers this problem more than any other (front running) car on the grid. I can't remember either the Ferraris or the Williams, nor the Redbull having these inconsistent starts on such a regular basis from either driver. Meanwhile at Mercedes, it seems to be an issue with both drivers, perhaps slightly more so on Hamilton's side (though it's harder to judge, because on various occasions, he wasn't starting on the front row to gauge his starts properly).

One way or the other; I still maintain this could be the year Rosberg clinches his first title. He is an awesome qualifier and even if he puts it on 2nd at every remaining race this year - if he somehow nails the start into the first corner, the statistical probability of that driver ahead to also win the race is extremely high.

On some level, I also think Hamilton not winning Monza is a severe setback, also psychologically. He utterly dominated qualifying. He usually dominates this grand prix. For it to go so wrong in a matter of seconds and throw away what was supposed to be a slam and dunk race and victory... that must be a severe a setback, even if he somehow salvaged 2nd place. And the remaining races will be more difficult to ace, more difficult to pass. And with that Mercedes being nearly guaranteed to be starting from the front row every single time, it's all about acing starts and the first corners for the most part.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. β€” bhall II
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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I think the starts are a matter of luck up to this point. It is just too random a stat for top caliber athletes with lightning quick reflexes. Here, Hamilton recons he did everything in order: http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3440 ... y-getaway/

I think the RedBull starts are just as random, but they have less wheelspin than the Mercs so they don't suffer as much when things go wrong.

Rosberg does have a good chance of winning the title than he has ever had, that is true. It definitely won't be on pure speed, it will be on some random stuff like starts and reliability. The good thing about it is statistically both Mercedes drivers are pretty much even in botched starts! I think after Monza, Hamilton has one extra.
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basti313
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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PlatinumZealot wrote:Rosberg does have a good chance of winning the title than he has ever had, that is true. It definitely won't be on pure speed, it will be on some random stuff like starts and reliability. The good thing about it is statistically both Mercedes drivers are pretty much even in botched starts! I think after Monza, Hamilton has one extra.
True. We have passed all races where one of the two might be better than the other (home races, Ham as Monza specialist, ...). The rest of the season will be quite equal if we look at past seasons results.
I would really like to see no more "bad luck", but a clean fight for the WC.
Don`t russel the hamster!

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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Phil wrote: While I agree with all of the above, unfortunately, this is just a side effect of having a 2-way championship race. When one has trouble, the other is more or less guaranteed to take the win and with that, at least a 7 point swing in his favor. Take Belgium; Hamilton wasn't near the front and anyone in that other car would sleep walk it. Same thing the other way around too if Rosberg has the bad luck and starts further behind.

Sadly, F1 is so competitive that even a botched start as happened at Monza in Hamiltons case means that it's an impossibility to get a fighting chance of the win if you find yourself 10 seconds off the lead at any one point. A driver might be able to close such a gap, but even to have a fighting chance to pull off a pass in two identical cars, on similar strategies yields a too small time differential to have a realistic chance of pulling it off. The only hope for the driver who has fallen behind is to be gifted an advantage, either through circumstance (i.e. a safety car that nullifies the gaps) or alternate strategy that somehow ends up being the lucky strike. I haven't watched the race, but even if Hamilton had somehow found a way to make his tires do the impossible and close such a gap, he would then find himself eventually at the rear, in dirty air with tires no longer in a state that would give that edge to make an overtake realistic or achievable. In fact, the odds would be that the strategy would then be compromised, forcing another pitstop, compromising that position and to make matters worse, you will have also overused your components (relatively) over the races still to come where those very components will have to be used.

But apart from that, that slim chance of circumstance, you have tire wear forcing drivers to manage them excessively and also fuel to consider. And then of course engine and other components usage, power maps because their performance needs to be spread over multiple races.

I will have to watch the race - and I will eventually - but I do find it increasingly odd that this year, every time both Mercedes are on the front row, it's the car starting in position 2 who seems to have a better grip on starts. Is it because the car starting in position 1 is that few seconds longer completely still and waiting? Is it the pressure? Or is it simply a matter of luck to a certain degree because the line between perfect clutch temperature and perfect driver ability and anything other than that results in either good start and horrendous/bad start?

What ever it is; I think it's clear that the Mercedes is a unique car that suffers this problem more than any other (front running) car on the grid. I can't remember either the Ferraris or the Williams, nor the Redbull having these inconsistent starts on such a regular basis from either driver. Meanwhile at Mercedes, it seems to be an issue with both drivers, perhaps slightly more so on Hamilton's side (though it's harder to judge, because on various occasions, he wasn't starting on the front row to gauge his starts properly).

One way or the other; I still maintain this could be the year Rosberg clinches his first title. He is an awesome qualifier and even if he puts it on 2nd at every remaining race this year - if he somehow nails the start into the first corner, the statistical probability of that driver ahead to also win the race is extremely high.

On some level, I also think Hamilton not winning Monza is a severe setback, also psychologically. He utterly dominated qualifying. He usually dominates this grand prix. For it to go so wrong in a matter of seconds and throw away what was supposed to be a slam and dunk race and victory... that must be a severe a setback, even if he somehow salvaged 2nd place. And the remaining races will be more difficult to ace, more difficult to pass. And with that Mercedes being nearly guaranteed to be starting from the front row every single time, it's all about acing starts and the first corners for the most part.
Good to hear from you Phil.

I actually believe the starts are down 50% to driver and 50% to electronics. I am convinced a driver of Hamilton's calibre is not going to cough up so many of them.

Again, Rosberg is a decent qualifier but bar Monaco and Hungary, he's not out qualified Hamilton this season. And the gaps in both those sessions is close. On the other hand, when Hamilton out-qualifies Rosberg, it's identical to gaps between other cars and Mercedes.

I'm also convinced Rosberg isn't winning a championship unless the Mercedes coughs up or these starts aren't sorted. I also don't think Hamilton will be too affected by Monza. He's not the Hamilton of 2007-11 who sweats over such things. He's comfortable in his skin and he knows Rosberg hasn't got a prayer on a level playing field. Expect to see Hamilton dominate the rest of the season.

Anyhow, personally I can't wait for this year to end. I don't like Hamilton's personality but I know how much respect I have for him as a racing driver. He's one of the best of all time and I can't help but feel his real challenge this year has been his engines. Hopefully, 2017 onwards, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen and Alonso have a car competitive enough to challenge him. I personally think even Hamilton will enjoy it more.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

Jolle
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Phil wrote: While I agree with all of the above, unfortunately, this is just a side effect of having a 2-way championship race. When one has trouble, the other is more or less guaranteed to take the win and with that, at least a 7 point swing in his favor. Take Belgium; Hamilton wasn't near the front and anyone in that other car would sleep walk it. Same thing the other way around too if Rosberg has the bad luck and starts further behind.

Sadly, F1 is so competitive that even a botched start as happened at Monza in Hamiltons case means that it's an impossibility to get a fighting chance of the win if you find yourself 10 seconds off the lead at any one point. A driver might be able to close such a gap, but even to have a fighting chance to pull off a pass in two identical cars, on similar strategies yields a too small time differential to have a realistic chance of pulling it off. The only hope for the driver who has fallen behind is to be gifted an advantage, either through circumstance (i.e. a safety car that nullifies the gaps) or alternate strategy that somehow ends up being the lucky strike. I haven't watched the race, but even if Hamilton had somehow found a way to make his tires do the impossible and close such a gap, he would then find himself eventually at the rear, in dirty air with tires no longer in a state that would give that edge to make an overtake realistic or achievable. In fact, the odds would be that the strategy would then be compromised, forcing another pitstop, compromising that position and to make matters worse, you will have also overused your components (relatively) over the races still to come where those very components will have to be used.

But apart from that, that slim chance of circumstance, you have tire wear forcing drivers to manage them excessively and also fuel to consider. And then of course engine and other components usage, power maps because their performance needs to be spread over multiple races.

I will have to watch the race - and I will eventually - but I do find it increasingly odd that this year, every time both Mercedes are on the front row, it's the car starting in position 2 who seems to have a better grip on starts. Is it because the car starting in position 1 is that few seconds longer completely still and waiting? Is it the pressure? Or is it simply a matter of luck to a certain degree because the line between perfect clutch temperature and perfect driver ability and anything other than that results in either good start and horrendous/bad start?

What ever it is; I think it's clear that the Mercedes is a unique car that suffers this problem more than any other (front running) car on the grid. I can't remember either the Ferraris or the Williams, nor the Redbull having these inconsistent starts on such a regular basis from either driver. Meanwhile at Mercedes, it seems to be an issue with both drivers, perhaps slightly more so on Hamilton's side (though it's harder to judge, because on various occasions, he wasn't starting on the front row to gauge his starts properly).

One way or the other; I still maintain this could be the year Rosberg clinches his first title. He is an awesome qualifier and even if he puts it on 2nd at every remaining race this year - if he somehow nails the start into the first corner, the statistical probability of that driver ahead to also win the race is extremely high.

On some level, I also think Hamilton not winning Monza is a severe setback, also psychologically. He utterly dominated qualifying. He usually dominates this grand prix. For it to go so wrong in a matter of seconds and throw away what was supposed to be a slam and dunk race and victory... that must be a severe a setback, even if he somehow salvaged 2nd place. And the remaining races will be more difficult to ace, more difficult to pass. And with that Mercedes being nearly guaranteed to be starting from the front row every single time, it's all about acing starts and the first corners for the most part.
Good to hear from you Phil.

I actually believe the starts are down 50% to driver and 50% to electronics. I am convinced a driver of Hamilton's calibre is not going to cough up so many of them.

Again, Rosberg is a decent qualifier but bar Monaco and Hungary, he's not out qualified Hamilton this season. And the gaps in both those sessions is close. On the other hand, when Hamilton out-qualifies Rosberg, it's identical to gaps between other cars and Mercedes.

I'm also convinced Rosberg isn't winning a championship unless the Mercedes coughs up or these starts aren't sorted. I also don't think Hamilton will be too affected by Monza. He's not the Hamilton of 2007-11 who sweats over such things. He's comfortable in his skin and he knows Rosberg hasn't got a prayer on a level playing field. Expect to see Hamilton dominate the rest of the season.

Anyhow, personally I can't wait for this year to end. I don't like Hamilton's personality but I know how much respect I have for him as a racing driver. He's one of the best of all time and I can't help but feel his real challenge this year has been his engines. Hopefully, 2017 onwards, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen and Alonso have a car competitive enough to challenge him. I personally think even Hamilton will enjoy it more.
Hamilton surprised me actually! When I saw him drop back I was expecting him to try to make it up within two corners, with a three wheeler as a result. He didn't, he was careful, knew (bit like Spa) that he could loose second place with being to aggressive and that first was basically gone already.
For a driver like Hamilton, who covered all corners of F1 driving, I don't believe so many bad starts are his fault and there is something critical wrong with the clutch/software/engineering of the clutch. Almost looks like, for 2014 they designed it all around with a semi automatic clutch with two paddles and that is nog converted to a manual with one paddle, almost like taking the powered steering off a car and trying to drive it then (combined with the relative longer first gear of the mercedes compared to the others, what puts a bit more strain on the clutch).

but... after all these years, they have a weak spot! only the first 100meters :P

ChrisDanger
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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basti313 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:Rosberg does have a good chance of winning the title than he has ever had, that is true. It definitely won't be on pure speed, it will be on some random stuff like starts and reliability. The good thing about it is statistically both Mercedes drivers are pretty much even in botched starts! I think after Monza, Hamilton has one extra.
True. We have passed all races where one of the two might be better than the other (home races, Ham as Monza specialist, ...). The rest of the season will be quite equal if we look at past seasons results.
I would really like to see no more "bad luck", but a clean fight for the WC.
Mercedes still have a bunch of tokens left. If they decide to bring an update it will hand Rosberg the championship on a platter.

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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ChrisDanger wrote:
basti313 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:Rosberg does have a good chance of winning the title than he has ever had, that is true. It definitely won't be on pure speed, it will be on some random stuff like starts and reliability. The good thing about it is statistically both Mercedes drivers are pretty much even in botched starts! I think after Monza, Hamilton has one extra.
True. We have passed all races where one of the two might be better than the other (home races, Ham as Monza specialist, ...). The rest of the season will be quite equal if we look at past seasons results.
I would really like to see no more "bad luck", but a clean fight for the WC.
Mercedes still have a bunch of tokens left. If they decide to bring an update it will hand Rosberg the championship on a platter.
Hamilton has already addressed that. He's made it clear that all updates are reliability based and he has enough amo on those lines.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

Jolle
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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ChrisDanger wrote:
basti313 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:Rosberg does have a good chance of winning the title than he has ever had, that is true. It definitely won't be on pure speed, it will be on some random stuff like starts and reliability. The good thing about it is statistically both Mercedes drivers are pretty much even in botched starts! I think after Monza, Hamilton has one extra.
True. We have passed all races where one of the two might be better than the other (home races, Ham as Monza specialist, ...). The rest of the season will be quite equal if we look at past seasons results.
I would really like to see no more "bad luck", but a clean fight for the WC.
Mercedes still have a bunch of tokens left. If they decide to bring an update it will hand Rosberg the championship on a platter.
There is, for Mercedes no need to invest in development for this years engine, their lead is enough. The drivers WC is fairly safe, the constructors as well and the only real fight with other teams are Williams and Force India, both with Merc power.

If for some reason, they need to run an upgraded engine for some development going on, leaving no tokens unused, they would prob put it in a Manor.

komninosm
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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It was really surprising that Hamilton had the presence of mind to say to his engineers the bad start was his fault just to focus them in the race, instead of whine about a bad clutch. Some drivers whine too much. I didn't much care for Alonso's sarcastic laughter either. It was disparaging his own engineers and team.
(I also don't like when crowds boo too much this season. It's OK to do it on a race that someone did something bad and maybe the next race if that person wasn't on podium in the race he screwed up in, but booing Hamilton just for winning a race and Rosberg 3+ races later is just too much. I'm talking in general not Monza)
GPR-A wrote: I think Williams made a massive mistake in not understanding who to race.

When Bottas had Lewis behind, there was no need for Bottas to screw up his own race by trying to keep Lewis behind. In all probability, it was a matter of time that Lewis would have overtaken him. But in the process, Bottas destroyed his own tyres by fighting hard, which allowed Red Bull to easiliy execute the strategy explained above. If Williams would have been clever in letting Lewis pass, they would have saved the position that they lost to Ricciardo.

Having full knowledge of the fact that, they don't have the kind of tire life that Mercedes or Red Bull has, they went for the adventure and paid the price. Time and again, Williams have failed to optimize their race earnings with poor strategy calls. They need to look at Force India to learn things.
So true. Bottas the roadblock robbed us of the slight chance there would be a real race for 1st place that there was and he screwed himself too. It's so sad that people do this sort of thing
Vasconia wrote:
Juzh wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:Does anyone feel that the new clutch rules add too much randomness to the starts?
No.
+1

Is Mercedes the team who has more problems with the starts. And its Hamilton who has more problems than anyone else with the starts. So he should work hard to improve this area. Nico has been consistently better than him.
Isn't it like 3 bad starts for each? And I'm pretty sure most other drivers have had 2-3 bad starts too. It's just less visible if you're not in the first row. :roll:

ChrisDanger
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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Jolle wrote:
ChrisDanger wrote:
basti313 wrote: True. We have passed all races where one of the two might be better than the other (home races, Ham as Monza specialist, ...). The rest of the season will be quite equal if we look at past seasons results.
I would really like to see no more "bad luck", but a clean fight for the WC.
Mercedes still have a bunch of tokens left. If they decide to bring an update it will hand Rosberg the championship on a platter.
There is, for Mercedes no need to invest in development for this years engine, their lead is enough. The drivers WC is fairly safe, the constructors as well and the only real fight with other teams are Williams and Force India, both with Merc power.

If for some reason, they need to run an upgraded engine for some development going on, leaving no tokens unused, they would prob put it in a Manor.
The changes to the engine regulations for 2017 involve cost, supply, sound, and with regards to performance are only aimed at performance convergence. Maybe changes to the boost pressure is the only real technical difference. In any case, Mercedes will almost certainly be continually developing their engine. If an improved iteration is available, why not use it?

I have no idea how likely this is. I wouldn't like to bet either way, although I'd guess it's more unlikely. But it is a possibility.

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AnthonyG
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
I think the RedBull starts are just as random, but they have less wheelspin than the Mercs so they don't suffer as much when things go wrong.
Interesting idea, more consistent starts in favor of a faster best possible start.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

ChrisDanger
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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Footage of the start from the stands as the Ferraris slot into 2nd and 3rd.



Posted on http://wtf1.co.uk/listen-tifosi-ferrari ... ton-monza/

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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Ricciardo had a poor start too. The Force India almost got him.
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/126056
"We never stop improving and learning, but this year has been a hard year for us with our clutch," said Hamilton.

"They'll be working very hard - it's not a quick fix so it's not something we can change for the next race.

"We have made improvements, so you've seen better starts, but we are still caught out by the random variation that we have from one start to another.

"We do practice starts all weekend and they are varying a little bit, and then every now and then we get a drastic variation.

"You've seen it with Nico, you've seen it with me quite a few times, so it is something we need to continue to work on.

"I can assure you we'll be talking about it on Tuesday [at the factory].

"We'll try to get as much information, and learn as much as we can, to try and make sure in the remaining seven races we're not struggling getting off the line from pole positions."

Hamilton maintained he went through his procedures correctly on the startline, only for there to be an over-delivery of torque, resulting in wheelspin.

NO BLAME AT MERCEDES

Wolff said he had no interest in getting to the bottom of who has been at fault for the problems at starts this year.

"In this team I will never blame anybody - not the driver, not the engineer, nobody," he said.

"If you start to blame this is where you start going downhill because people will try to protect their arse and have a conservative system in place rather than putting the best development on the car.

"Nobody is to blame, and in this particular case it's a combination of many things.

"We changed the rules last year [going from a double to a single clutch start] and this is why I don't want to go there.

"Once we've seen all the data we'll address it internally to see what needs to be done in order for it to be avoided.

"So it's not a game of blaming. As a team you win and lose together. In that case the team has lost."
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