2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

[i70q7m7ghw]

The bad starts aren't limited to just Hamilton, Rosberg has had issues and both Mercs have often been jumped at the start. I personally don't feel there was anything wrong with the starts prior to the regulation changes. I do feel like we are being robbed of wheel-to-wheel action between the top guys though, I was looking forward to a straight fight in Japan, instead we got yet another recovery drive from one of the Mercs.

[Sevach]

The bad starts aren't limited to just Hamilton, Rosberg has had issues and both Mercs have often been jumped at the start. I personally don't feel there was anything wrong with the starts prior to the regulation changes. I do feel like we are being robbed of wheel-to-wheel action between the top guys though, I was looking forward to a straight fight in Japan, instead we got yet another recovery drive from one of the Mercs.

Hell no, it was all automatic, this is much better.

And people keep saying "we've been robbed of a race in Japan", sorry but we actually got a better race than what would happen had Nico and Lewis got out of the first lap 1st and 2nd.

[Manoah2u]

Would this apply to the other 6 drivers using the Merc engines, that all of them have smooth driving styles compared to Lewis?

seems you are missing the point.
it's not about the other CARS. I'm not talking about the engine specifically. I'm talking about the whole package.
First of all i am 100% sure the Merc works engine is - even though slightly - more advanced then the rest, and same goes for Ferrari just to name one. I dont know about the other teams, but i think Merc also have their OWN gearbox - an area to be radically different too. Also mentioned in a sky episode a while ago, that the front suspension [dampers] are different at Merc, and this is not positive for Lewis' driving style where he is less able to 'point' or 'agressively' put the car into the corner.
the sum of it all; the suspension, aero, weight distribution, engine, gearbox, and setup have a significant impact on the car - because of that i'd say looking at the results, a possibility is - a possibility, theoretically - hamilton might put more stress on the parts then nico does. As the sum of it all is a car that is very sensitive to the setup, it could be that it is a bit 'too tight' of a suit for lewis;

in comparison ; you might say they have the both suit and both proportions, and both are really tight in the suit, but nico 'smoothly' and 'gently' and doesnt lift anything heavier than a glass of wine as he moves around in the suit, where Lewis moves 'fast, rushed, and goes lifting refrigerators with it' - pushing it beyond the structural capacities and the suit tears.

just an example.

Fortunately for Lewis, there seems to be respite for next year. Scarbs mentions in the following interview that there would be a sensor available for next year, that helps understand the torque demand for the start, which would help in having consistent starts. Whether that start is going to be great, would still depend upon the efficiency of the clutch, but I guess it wouldn't fool the driver anymore.

http://www.espn.com/core/video/iframe?i ... card=false

might help, might not. in the end, all the drivers will get it the same, so it's still even, so i'm not that convinced it would 'release' pressure there. Funny enough, i remember Verstappen complaining about the clutch during starts and that it gave problems, and that's exactly what happened at Mercedes before, too. Nobody denies Max driving style is.....agressive, so, one might wonder whether in both cases it's an indication that the cars fit for their respective driving styles causes some 'side effects' that are a tad unwanted.

[Phil]

So if Lewis messes up some starts, cars must be modified to be easier?

No. I can only speak for myself, but IMO I want a championship that reflects on the skill of a driver. Same applied to 2012 with the lottery tires. Yes, they gave an impossibly small margin for error and success and therefore, we had many freak wins and races (the first 10 races at least), even a win by Maldonado, but IMO that isn't the point of F1.

The clutches and the starts are an interesting point. I think the "skill" to master a clean get away is important, but no doubt, these cars are way more sensitive and complicated than to be a simple task of skill. You have the temperature variation of the clutch and engine, you have the torque of the engine being as peaky as it is and then you have the grip of the surface and the heat of the tires to consider. This all makes for an extremely difficult task, considering the driver only has access to a wheel, obviously the throttle, the clutch and his display with limited space and information. This all adds up to something rather unpredictable.

The starts that we have now, at least in some of the cars, reminds me more of a challenge that is like having a driver about to do a drag race, but having some kind of handicap in the form of having to solve a computer puzzle first to get the chance of a perfect get away.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but this isn't what I am looking for in a sport such as F1. And this doesn't only apply to Hamiltons starts, it also applies to Nico's bad starts and just about anyone on the grid who has suffered from them. Yes, even Nico's bad start was bad for us race fans because it robbed us of an exciting race.

Now maybe it's only the Mercedes that has this issue and the issue lies with them, but as a fan of F1, I feel somewhat robbed of this season because we're just about through it and we still haven't really had a real battle between the two only contenders to the WDC after 17 races - and given a Mercedes has won all races bar 2 and had more 1-2s than one can count, I do find it quite dissatisfying that we've all had this without a single battle.

[RedNEO]

So if Lewis messes up some starts, cars must be modified to be easier?

No. I can only speak for myself, but IMO I want a championship that reflects on the skill of a driver. Same applied to 2012 with the lottery tires. Yes, they gave an impossibly small margin for error and success and therefore, we had many freak wins and races (the first 10 races at least), even a win by Maldonado, but IMO that isn't the point of F1.

The clutches and the starts are an interesting point. I think the "skill" to master a clean get away is important, but no doubt, these cars are way more sensitive and complicated than to be a simple task of skill. You have the temperature variation of the clutch and engine, you have the torque of the engine being as peaky as it is and then you have the grip of the surface and the heat of the tires to consider. This all makes for an extremely difficult task, considering the driver only has access to a wheel, obviously the throttle, the clutch and his display with limited space and information. This all adds up to something rather unpredictable.

The starts that we have now, at least in some of the cars, reminds me more of a challenge that is like having a driver about to do a drag race, but having some kind of handicap in the form of having to solve a computer puzzle first to get the chance of a perfect get away.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but this isn't what I am looking for in a sport such as F1. And this doesn't only apply to Hamiltons starts, it also applies to Nico's bad starts and just about anyone on the grid who has suffered from them. Yes, even Nico's bad start was bad for us race fans because it robbed us of an exciting race.

Now maybe it's only the Mercedes that has this issue and the issue lies with them, but as a fan of F1, I feel somewhat robbed of this season because we're just about through it and we still haven't really had a real battle between the two only contenders to the WDC after 17 races - and given a Mercedes has won all races bar 2 and had more 1-2s than one can count, I do find it quite dissatisfying that we've all had this without a single battle.

This actually makes no sense. You are essentially saying you want to make things easier to show the skill of a driver when it should be the other way round. The clutches are not a lottery so can people stop saying that as Alonso has got great starts after great starts. Real skill!

[Andres125sx]

you have the torque of the engine being as peaky as it is

Sorry but turbo engines are anything but peaky. Add to that an electric motor adding torque from still, and you get probably the less peaky PU you can get on any car.

You have the temperature variation of the clutch and engine, you have the torque of the engine being as peaky as it is and then you have the grip of the surface and the heat of the tires to consider. This all makes for an extremely difficult task, considering the driver only has access to a wheel, obviously the throttle, the clutch and his display with limited space and information. This all adds up to something rather unpredictable.

Before stating starts are unpredictable analize this:

Who´s had bad starts? Some driver/team? Or any erratic driver?

If bad starts have been a problem for different drivers I might agree, there could be some problem with cars, but that´s not the case, some drivers get consistent starts, while some other don´t, so the problem is not on the cars, but on the driver or some specific car. Some time ago I asked if Mercedes could have chosen some setup to improve PU perfomance wich is harming their starts, but got no reply

Anycase you´re still missing the point, Lewis didn´t match recomended rpm before releasing the cluth paddle. It doesn´t matter what kind of car you give to any driver, if he miss the sweet spot before releasing the clutch his start will be embarrasing, period

BTW, that is exactly what we have been asking for for many years when starts where too automatic and there was no tension because all cars started the same. And now that we have starts where driver play a role we ask for more similar starts?

[NL_Fer]

Another question, can anybody give me a roundup about how Haas was so fast in Q and McLaren was just horrible this weekend. I don't believe it is just the PU.



Looks like sector one made the difference. Only Torro Rosso lost in de last sector, probably due their PU.

[ChrisDanger]

Craig Scarborough has written an article on the clutch systems currently in use. It has a bit more information than what's been posted here, but nothing revolutionary.

http://www.mobil1thegrid.com/article/ta ... -car-2016/

[henry]

Add to that an electric motor adding torque from still, and you get probably the less peaky PU you can get on any car.

A minor detail. The MGU-K is disabled up to 100kph at the start.

It doesn't really change your argument.

[hollus]

@Andres. This has been discussed already in a number of threads. Mercedes has, in 2016, the longest 1st gear of any car by a large margin (caveat that 1st gears are the most imprecise in that dataset, so there is a small chance of an error there).
Not sure if this is causing the bad starts, but IMO, whatever the sweet spot of RPM is for a good start, it is bound to be a narrower sweet spot in the Mercedes.
Edit: Are Merdeces aware that their name means "mercy"? Or better, mercies.

[Fulcrum]

Without going into any of the potential mechanical shortcomings of the clutch, gearing, or drivers, we're always going to be far more aware of a Mercedes start issue than any other team, because their 'weakness' is extremely visible.

They usually start on the front row of the grid (10 of 17 races they've been 1-2 in qualifying). Even the slightest 'error' is immediately obvious to all viewers. Not to mention, the sharp end of the grid is usually populated with the cars and drivers most capable of exploiting a deficiency.

Less attention is paid to the starts of the other drivers and cars, so I'm less inclined to pass judgement on Mercedes, Hamilton, or Rosberg, without measuring their performance relative to the rest of the grid. Without that data, this is just an example of confirmation bias on our part.

[PlatinumZealot]

People seem to forget how it was Nico who had start problems in 2014 and Hamilton had to dedicste his time to do an entire test to help Nico sort out his starts. And they also forgot that Nico has had five bad starts this year and hamiton six. There is not much difference in that to say it's hamilton not understanding how to use the clutch. A 3 XWDC that doesnt now how to launch? Ridiculous.

[Andres125sx]

People seem to forget how it was Nico who had start problems in 2014 and Hamilton had to dedicste his time to do an entire test to help Nico sort out his starts. And they also forgot that Nico has had five bad starts this year and hamiton six. There is not much difference in that to say it's hamilton not understanding how to use the clutch. A 3 XWDC that doesnt now how to launch? Ridiculous.

Nobody said Hamilton is so stupid he can´t read his wheel, but the fact remains the same, in Japan he didn´t put the engine in the sweet spot and ruined his own start, even if you find it ridiculous.

I think nobody said Nico never had problems with his starts, actually I asked some time ago about Mercedes bad starts and some different configuration they have because we all noticed the starts are the main weak point of the german team.


Basically we´re doing an analysis, not bashing Lewis as some of you may read it. As stated Mercedes must have something different (thanks Hollus for the hint, but I don´t remember that gearing chart showed a significantly longer first gear for Mercedes), but even if the sweet spot is smaller, missing it is still a driver mistake, not a car problem. Or read it this way, Mercedes may be the most difficult car on the starts, but even if it was the easier in the grid, Lewis would have ruined his start by missing the sweet spot.

[hollus]

They probably have very little use for a shorter first gear at any other point of almost any race. But TANSTAAFL!

[i70q7m7ghw]

The bad starts aren't limited to just Hamilton, Rosberg has had issues and both Mercs have often been jumped at the start. I personally don't feel there was anything wrong with the starts prior to the regulation changes. I do feel like we are being robbed of wheel-to-wheel action between the top guys though, I was looking forward to a straight fight in Japan, instead we got yet another recovery drive from one of the Mercs.

Hell no, it was all automatic, this is much better.

And people keep saying "we've been robbed of a race in Japan", sorry but we actually got a better race than what would happen had Nico and Lewis got out of the first lap 1st and 2nd.

Who cares if it's automatic? It's still a lifeless electronic paddle today. F1 is meant to be about wheel to wheel action, the start should be a formality, it shouldn't be such a large part of the outcome of the race, the racing should decide the result. I don't care who can feather a lifeless paddle on the steering wheel the best, but I do care who the best wheel to wheel racer is, and who can go quickest through the tight streets of Monaco.