2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
Locked
User avatar
djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

Wynters wrote: I don't think it's a surprise that the tyre that suffered worst was the left front, given Ricciardo had to move to the left after he started braking in order to try and avoid Vettel. Looking at Ricciardo's initial line, he was moving from the inside towards the middle of the track. Steps on the brake. Vettel moves back. Ricciardo straightens the Red Bull and the inside wheel locks as the car's weight shifts to the right. Vettel still coming across so he has to move again, now pointing towards the inside of the corner. Lock up gets worse.

For Ricciardo, would he have locked up if Vettel hadn't moved towards him? Maybe, maybe not. Would not locking up mean he didn't over run the apex? Maybe, maybe not. He'd definitely arrive with less speed and on a wider line if he didn't lock up and didn't have to accommodate Vettel's move. Would that be sufficient? Who knows. Lot's of 'ifs' and 'buts' ... I don't think it's clear cut.
This is simple stuff folks, turning the steering wheel under heavy braking to avoid Vettel changes the slip angle of Dan's front tires and the result is the left wheel becomes unloaded, as weight transfers to the right side, locking up and flat-spotting the left tire. Had he not had to avoid Vettel I dont believe he'd have flat-spotted the tire.

I've bolded the important bit above, If you aren't familiar with "slip angles", go look them up.
"In downforce we trust"

mrluke
33
Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 20:31

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

Wynters wrote:Rosberg chose to try and stay on Verstappen's outside. He could have slotted in behind him before he ran out of road. He then straightened his car in parallel to the white lines (right next to the track) and then chose not to safely rejoin behind Verstappen and, instead, chose to turn away from the track, off the tarmac, go across the grass and rejoin two car lengths in front of the car that had passed him. Each stage is a more deliberate decision than Hamilton.
These were my thoughts also, was waiting for some decent footage to come out but Rosberg was only just off the track prior to turn 2 and slightly behind Ves, he then decides to veer to the left, cutting out all of t2 and joining ahead instead.

Fifty
0
Joined: 28 Feb 2016, 17:19

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

It's weird that people are now saying that if the driver behind tucks his nose into the driver in front, at the beginning or middle of a corner, then the driver behind owns the corner and the driver in front has to do what ever he can in order to avoid contact and/or give up the place...

In my time racing, the car in front owns that corner and it's the overtaking drivers responsibility to overtake safely and if you can't do it, or the door starts to shut in the corner, then the overtaking driver has to back off.

I read these comments on this forum and it seems that people opinion are less about the rules of Motorsport and more about "well my favorite driver was involved so whatever he did was the right way and the other guy should give way"

This isn't PlayStation racing rules...

kestokas
0
Joined: 31 Oct 2016, 08:53

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

djos wrote:
Mandrake wrote:This is getting more and more ridiculous.....
Not really, trying swearing at the ref's in any football code and see how hard the book gets thrown at you!
All these football comparisons. If a referee consistently ignored unsportsmanlike behavior from one team or a player, then sends off the one complaining about it, he would need an escort out of the stadium and people would throw beer at him in the best case scenario.

Talking about professionalism with recent FIA decision-making in mind is also quite bold, to say the least.

User avatar
Vasconia
6
Joined: 30 Aug 2012, 10:45
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

TAG wrote:
Vasconia wrote:Nico has been doing a great job, being fast but taking care of his car. It was like that in 2010, 2011 and so on. Its not a coincidence that he has always been the best in the team in terms of reliability.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/ ... uscimi.gif

So you're saying that Nico is a better driver because he's managed to have more reliability than Hamilton? In what planet does this even begin to make sense? On the one hand we have the claims and statements to calm down reliability issues happen, it's just bad luck, there's nothing sinister going on... and now you're claiming that Nico is a more consistent driver hence his engines don't blow up?

Makes me want to laugh out loud if it wasn't such an baseless assertion to make. You're not Lewis' biggest fan, we know, but at least have some link back to reality when you're going to say something, otherwise you risk coming off looking rather foolish.

Man, you have over-reacted to my comment. I have only said that Rosberg has always had a better reliability since he joined Mercedes in 2010. Between 2010 and 2012 Michael Schumacher(my favourite driver) was his teanmate, and Nico had always less problems with the car. Then Lewis came and it has been the same. Coincidence?....

Well, I cant say "no" with total confidence due to the lack of information but it does look that Nico is more gentle when its about handling the car and this could(and I say COULD) explain why he has few issues with car´s realiability. Obviously, luck plays always a role but if the same driver has always more luck during 6 seasons, could it be another factor to explain this?

I have no said that he is better driver than Lewis because of this, or that he deserves the title more. Man, yes I am not the biggest Hamilton out there, you are right, but I am not a stupid hater who mimimizes all the good aspects that Lewis has. Sadly I cant say the same with some people about Nico, all he achieves seems to be thank to the luck, perhaps he should sit down and wait if "luck" wins all the races for him.

User avatar
Vasconia
6
Joined: 30 Aug 2012, 10:45
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

iotar__ wrote:Vettel's letter to FIA:
I’m really, really sorry. I apologize unreservedly. I offer a complete and utter retraction. The imputation was totally without basis in fact, and was in no way fair comment, and was motivated purely by malice, and I deeply regret any distress that my comments may have caused you, or your family, and I hereby undertake not to repeat any such slander at any time in the future.
It's Whiting that should be apologising to fans that pay for this abomination of a sport.
Well according to what I have seen it will be enough and Vettel wont receive any punishment for his comments during the race. This is good in my opinion.

And I think that from this moment Vettel will be more careful about this comments. This race should help him to calm down a little bit.

User avatar
Vasconia
6
Joined: 30 Aug 2012, 10:45
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

ChrisDanger wrote:At least my grandmother can watch the races with us again.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwKqtiuWAAA3yqq.jpg:large
I agree that drivers should use an appropiate language but this is too much. With this and the rules which destroy any sense of old school fighting and defense F1 is becoming a meeting of old ladies who love to drink coffee.

Stradivarius
1
Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 19:20

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

Wynters wrote:
Stradivarius wrote:I really don't see the significance of whether Hamilton locked a front, lost the rears or anything like that. He was still driving his car off the track, taking a shortcut and keeping the lead, while the drivers behind him braked early enough to stay on the track. In my opinion, a driver should be rewarded if he is doing a better job than another driver, and a driver should suffer if he is doing a worse job than another driver. In turn 1 on the first lap, Hamilton basically made a big mistake and was rewarded for it. That feels wrong to me.
I think how much control over the car a driver has is relevant to what choices they can make.
I don't. In racing in general the whole point is to reward drivers for controlling their car. It doesn't make sense to me to reward a driver for loosing control of his car through his own error and punish another driver for keeping control of his car.
Stradivarius wrote:Your thoughts on Rosberg cutting the corner fail to take into consideration that Rosberg was off the track through no fault of his own.
Rosberg chose to try and stay on Verstappen's outside. He could have slotted in behind him before he ran out of road. He then straightened his car in parallel to the white lines (right next to the track) and then chose not to safely rejoin behind Verstappen and, instead, chose to turn away from the track, off the tarmac, go across the grass and rejoin two car lengths in front of the car that had passed him. Each stage is a more deliberate decision than Hamilton.
This is exactly my point, you keep referring to intentions and what is deliberate, which is really impossible to know for sure, it is pure speculation. The point here is that Rosberg was entitled to some room on the track, but Verstappen denied him. That is why he went off the track. It is totally irrelevant that Rosberg could have chosen to let Verstappen pass him in order to not leave the track. That is not what is meant by "drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times". Alonso could have chosen to let the entire field pass him to make sure he stayed on track, but that is also irrelevant and not what is meant by "every reasonable effort". But in Hamilton's case, it is easy to argue that he didn't make every reasonable effort. Even if you are right about him not being in control because he braked way too late or whatever, it doesn't feel right to me that he gets rewarded for it. And let me be clear: Hamilton did gain an advantage by cutting the corner, he maintained the lead which is the best thing he could have hoped for even before he made his mistake. The mistake he made would normally have cost him the lead and probably several additional positions.

On the other hand, I have no problem admiting that Hamilton did the only reasonable thing from his own point of view. He kept the lead and the way the rules are currently enforced there was obviously a good chance for him to escape penalty, which he did. My point here is basically that in my opinion, the rules should be enforced differently, i.e. more stringently. In an ideal world, Rosberg would have made it back on the track before turn 2, knowing that Verstappen would pay the price for pushing him off. But instead of rewarding drivers for their skills in controlling their cars in difficult situations, drivers are now excused for loosing the control, while those who remain in control loose out.

Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

Interesting that RedBull didn't forcibly tell Ves to cede the place to Vet after being told to by the stewards. I'm surprised that the FIA / stewards haven't made something of that. They've filled their boots with everything else that went on in the last three laps...

Or perhaps the half-hearted radio call to Ves was considered sufficient.

Who knows. Who cares anymore...
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

User avatar
Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

I really don't know why stewards decisions are not communicated publicly at the time. It's kind of annoying to find out this information days after the event.
Not the engineer at Force India

ChrisDanger
26
Joined: 30 Mar 2011, 09:59

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

Vasconia wrote:
ChrisDanger wrote:At least my grandmother can watch the races with us again.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwKqtiuWAAA3yqq.jpg:large
I agree that drivers should use an appropiate language but this is too much. With this and the rules which destroy any sense of old school fighting and defense F1 is becoming a meeting of old ladies who love to drink coffee.
Fortunately it was just an elaborate hoax (see tweet below). I find the fact that Vettel was investigated for his outburst a bit silly. There's been no further action, which I assume is because there's no code or regulation that explicitly prohibits "cussing at the officials". :roll:
https://twitter.com/GrandPrixDiary/stat ... 0704003072


User avatar
NathanOlder
48
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

I dont remember anyone calling for Rosberg to get a penalty when he did the same thing at T2 (proper T1) in Russia in 2014. He locked up, went wide, rejoined well ahead of where he was at the point of lock up and continued with a decent lead.
That was all while overtaking Lewis and not just going into the corner on his own.
He didnt get a penalty because he flat spotted his tyres (was punished for his mistake)

Lewis flat spotted his tyre in Mexico, but not as bad because he was quick enough to release the brake and run on.
As everyone knows (or should know) Lap 1 , T1 is always commotion. The only thing the drivers get penalised for is, avoidable contact and over taking while off the track. Lewis did neither of these.

Or maybe Charlie and the Stewards let him off to piss you haters off. Yeah must be that, and judging by your reactions you guys really have been pissed off so its worked a treat. (thanks charlie :wink: )
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

Wynters
6
Joined: 15 May 2016, 14:49

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

Stradivarius wrote:But instead of rewarding drivers for their skills in controlling their cars in difficult situations, drivers are now excused for loosing the control, while those who remain in control loose out.
To simplify further, there are two separate phases to each incident. Let's ignore 27.4 (which would be the rule they would be penalised under).

Phase 1 - Hamilton: Hamilton locks up and leaves the track.
Phase 1 - Rosberg: Rosberg can not stay on the track due to Verstappen pushing him off.
End result: Both cars are off track.

Phase 2 - Hamilton: Could rejoin earlier than he does, chooses not to. At the point that he rejoins he has gained an advantage.
Phase 2 - Rosberg: Could rejoin earlier than he does, chooses not to. At the point that he rejoins he has gained an advantage.
End result: Both cars have gained an advantage by staying off track and cutting the corner.
Stradivarius wrote:This is exactly my point, you keep referring to intentions and what is deliberate, which is really impossible to know for sure, it is pure speculation.
Stradivarius wrote:On the other hand, I have no problem admiting that Hamilton did the only reasonable thing from his own point of view. He kept the lead and the way the rules are currently enforced there was obviously a good chance for him to escape penalty, which he did.
It's impossible to know if Rosberg was making deliberate decisions but it's obvious that this was all a plan by Hamilton? Really?

Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

Post

Back in the day when I played rugby, one thing that was always stressed was: "play to the whistle". That means don't try to second guess the ref just because you think something is illegal.

Racing drivers "drive to the whistle" and wait to be told they've been naughty. All sportsmen do. That's why sometimes they appear to "get away" with something.

It doesn't always work even when they try to be good e.g. Hamilton at Spa in 2008 when racing Kimi in the last chicane. Gave the place back and still got penalised.

Drive to the whistle.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Locked