2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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Most people who are complaining about Ferrari allegadelly team orders are actually complaining that Ferrari gave Vettel a chance to win. They just come up with scenarios in which Vet would not have a chance to produce fast laps and make him pit immediately after kimi to insure that Kimi would win being the slowest driver.

Isn't that really team orders?
Was it not better for the show to have those 4/5 ball to the wall (literally cause... monaco) laps that decided the win?

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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basti313 wrote:Lapping with 1:17 mid and having cars behind on new tires that might do 1:16 low...I would call this an imminent danger...especially as you can loose easily a second with a not perfect stop...but ok... ;)
Lets back this up with some facts, shall we?

Lap 31: RAI: 1:17.074, VET: 1:17.166, BOT: 1:17.470, VER: 1:17.242
Lap 32: RAI: 1:17.663, VET: 1:17.052, BOT: 1:17.219, VER: (PIT *1:35.170)
Lap 33: RAI: 1:17.034, VET: 1:17.188, BOT: (PIT *1:34.473), VER: 1:18.341
Lap 34: RAI: (PIT *1:34.039), VET: 1:16.592, BOT: 1:19.431, VER: 1:17.774
Lap 35: RAI: 1:19.518, VET: 1:16.446, BOT: 1:17.783, VER: 1:16.863

So, just to highlight (in case you missed it):

VER pitted on lap 32. On Lap 33, he was on his out lap and did a 1:18.3 - that very same lap RAI was still doing a 1:17.034. Lap 34, VER did a 1:17.774 - still 7 tenths slower than Kimis last full lap on the old ultra soft tires.

So where exactly are you getting this idea that either Ferrari was under imminent threat if both cars that pitted (VER and BOT) were doing slower laps after their pit stops? In both cases, it took about 2-3 laps for the SS to get into the ideal temperature range to start performing (and perhaps the element of backmarker traffic, though according to the history lap chart off the fia website, neither BOT nor VES had any), hence why the "overcut" was quicker. Ferrari had the data, they just needed to look at VER times on lap 33 and 34 just before RAI pitted.

* EDIT: And before you want to point out that I left out the times on the pit-stop; I just included them now. Kimi's IN-LAP was quicker than both VER and BOT, so no, not even on the lap Kimi was pitting was he on a slow lap.
Last edited by Phil on 30 May 2017, 16:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Sieper
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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Big Mangalhit wrote:
30 May 2017, 15:46
Most people who are complaining about Ferrari allegadelly team orders are actually complaining that Ferrari gave Vettel a chance to win. They just come up with scenarios in which Vet would not have a chance to produce fast laps and make him pit immediately after kimi to insure that Kimi would win being the slowest driver.

Isn't that really team orders?
Was it not better for the show to have those 4/5 ball to the wall (literally cause... monaco) laps that decided the win?
1. Who will most likely win this years WDC?--->.....
2. who will be his most likely competitor for that title?--->....
3. How bad would it have hurt if the last race the driver from answer 1 falls 2 points short to driver of answer 2?
4. Who won sunday on a circuit where zero overtakes happened and where an undercut already failed and it was known the US were superior to the SS and could be had to race end (were it not for the rules you have to change compound).

In my viewpoint the answer on question 3 has been asked (and answered) in the Ferrari booth last weekend.

basti313
basti313
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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Phil wrote:
30 May 2017, 16:06
basti313 wrote:Lapping with 1:17 mid and having cars behind on new tires that might do 1:16 low...I would call this an imminent danger...especially as you can loose easily a second with a not perfect stop...but ok... ;)
Lets back this up with some facts, shall we?

Lap 31:
..............

So where exactly are you getting this idea that either Ferrari was under imminent threat if both cars that pitted (VER and BOT) were doing slower laps after their pit stops?
Again: They called Rai in a lap before his pitstop. Not a second before he entered the pits, but a full lap before.
At this time they had a very fast S2 from Ver on the screen. Not more. I do not know why you want to discuss 5 laps, you need to discuss what triggered the pitstop.
Phil wrote:
30 May 2017, 16:06
it took about 2-3 laps for the SS to get into the ideal temperature range to start performing
This is simply not true. Ver posted a very strong S2 and a pink S3 on his outlap. The S3 time of Ver during his outlap was the second fastest S3, it was only beaten by the fastest lap of Perez.
Rai and Bot did not get to grip, the rest did not have to push.
Don`t russel the hamster!

ferkan
ferkan
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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TwanV wrote:
30 May 2017, 15:24
Serious discussion! :D In my humble opinion RAI and VER are absolutely right being upset. His pitstop was lousy, but the moment VER pitted I knew he was more or less sacrificed to get a RB on the podium. The entire weekend is was clear that a) the US was quicker vs. the SS and b) the US in principle could last at least half distance without much degradation. In principle, this is the reason why the overcut is always the faster way in Monaco for the last couple of years, and RB just gave the advantage to RIC by pitting VER earlier. Smart move strategy-wise by leaving the choice to Bottas and they snapped the bait; true. Nevertheless, the same thing could've happened if RIC would go first (give or take, Merc would have the luxury of a lap of RIC on SS to determine for sure it would be slower).
For RAI, it's even worse.. that was just robbery :shock: :lol: . RAI and VER were quicker then their respective team-mates all weekend, but the teams made their minds up and handed the win to the other guy.
Hmm Kimi was faster in quali. He was quite a bit behind Vettel in all FPs and actual race, it was pretty clear to everyone he was far from Vettels pace. It was no robbery no matter how much you try to persuede yourself with it.

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turbof1
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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I agree with Basti. You all are focussing way too much on conjecture.
-Ferrari only brought 2 sets of SS along and I believe they did not use any sets of those during free practice.
-Red bull brought only the mandatory single SS set along, so they definitely had no prior running on those tyres.
-Verstappen put on good times on a tyre he used for the very first time during the weekend.
-Ferrari brought Raikkonen in one lap after Verstappen's purple S2, assumingly they felt that if Red Bull could get a previously unused tyre working to good effect, they can too and should to cover potential undercutting.
-Turned out that Ferrari and especially Raikkonen had issues getting the tyres up to temperature quickly.

Pirelli predicted correctly a rather large cross over point between used US and new SS. That is what we saw, where some were more able to switch on the SS from the go than others.

Action and reaction people. Essentially nobody really knew what to expect from the super softs they had to use during the race.
#AeroFrodo

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Sieper
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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oh they knew!

ferkan
ferkan
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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Phil wrote:
30 May 2017, 15:24
@ferkan,

Surely you must be aware that this Formula requires a fine trade-off between tire preservation and out right pushing. E.g. if you push like mad, you might find yourself with overheating tires or worse, tires beyond their optimum range when you need them. Especially in Monaco, this can be costly, as building a too large gap can put you at a disadvantage if for example a safety car later bunches up the field again and you are left with tires in a worse state than the next best guy behind you.

Hence, why we see various teams explicitly tell their driver to push when they are nearing a pit stop. It's so ensure that you extract everything from the tires and try to build a possible gap. This to the best of my knowledge didn't happen for Kimi.

And no, I am not making scenarios. I am questioning why the guy who put the car on pole and has been asked by his team in a public fashion to improve his performance wasn't given the best strategy to also win the race. I'm happy to admit that Vettel looked like the quickest guy out there by some margin, but then so was Hamilton in 2014 and in various other races like Brazil 2015, but he still didn't get the "better strategy" because of it. The leading car did. So to a point, I am questioning why Kimi didn't receive the preferred treatment either, which would have been to pit 2nd.

I think questing the motives behind Ferrari's pitstop strategy is a legitimate question, one that surely Kimi must be asking himself too.
Frankly, I'm surprised someone who is active on this kind of forum even entertains the idea that 38yr old WDC veteran, who raced in Monaco 15 times in his lifetime, and who actively asked his engineer "are we pitting yet" didn't know he had to push to open gap bigger then 1s over his teammate in 2nd place.

Do you think they don't discuss pit window for certain situations night before? Do you think his engineer and himself are not having a chat in what conditions his tires are, his fuel levels and what competition is doing behind him?

You are asking why he didn't receive preferred treatment, but he did, you are just not (I assume now its on purpose) getting it. He got car on pole, he got first pit stop advantage (like RB and Merc drivers did and like Ferrari agreed upon on briefing), and he got 34 laps in clear air to put some buffer between him and his teammate. 1s is NOT a buffer that you can then use for 2 weeks in arguing how come he lost a race even though he was 1st. Being 1st with 5-6s off your teammate and pitting in lap where your teammate got his nose right in DRS zone are two very different things.

Another thing, Kimi had problems catching backmarkers even 10 laps earlier and he built a train behind him. Maybe he wanted to push Seb back to Bottas for tactical advantage, or he didnt' have a pace, I don't know, but either way it slowed him down far too much and in the end (along with his 5-6 pedestrian laps before pitting) cost him pitting behind these very same back markers after Verstappen pushed everyone into pits.

From Ferrari POV, all they had to do is follow what Verstappen and Bottas did, ghost Ricciardo, and 1-2 was theirs because race is 1 stopper. Is it Ferrari's problem their pole sitter couldn't get a tenth (1/10 of a second) on his teammate in 34 lap time in clear air? Is it Ferrari's job to slow Vettel down once they saw his speed was devastating in comparison to Kimi's? What if Kimi stayed for 2 laps more and Vettel covered Bot/Verstappen? That would be going against something they agreed upon, against something everyone has been touting about (1st driver 1st in pits) and would result in exact same result = Vettel beating Kimi. Vettels in lap + tire change lenght was enough for him to bang wheels with Kimi on their way out.

Some of you are taking this far, and I mean, far to far. Its literally no controversy. I'll explain to you rather easily.

- Kimi starts 1st
- Kimi cant build a gap on Vettel, but can on other 2 contenders (means he is not exactly coasting)
- Kimi has trouble with backmarkers creating a train of cars less then dozen laps before pitting that puts his teammate and WDC leader in danger
- Kimi drives in 17s for his last 5-6 laps and in penultimate lap asks his engineer "Is it time to pit yet?"
- Ferrari then responds with pitting Kimi and defending from anything RB and Merc throw, because at that time Verstappen was flying
- Kimi goes into pits with only 1.1s advantage over Vettel
- He puts on SS tires, passes backmarkers (that he shouldn't have encountered in first place if he upped his pace in those last 5-6 laps) on 1st lap and then bangs few laps all .8-1.5s faster then what he was doing on US
- By that time, Vettel has Ericsson infront of him for lap until he pits
- Vettel bangs few incredibly fast laps
- Goes into pits (with his S3 from inlap being .9 faster)
- Changes tires (.4 tenths faster)
- Gets back infront of Kimi

For anyone even remotely rational, Kimi could NEVER have hopped to get infront of Vettel given that his advantage was literally on the verge of DRS zone, and given that his S3 on his inlap was .5s slower then Vettels. His tire change was .4s worse as well and that means his entire advantage is pretty much whipped out by only these 2 things. This means, without bringing Vettels superior pace in free air, Kimi lost his complete advantage in inlap, outlap and tire change.

As for Hamilton on Brazil 2014, frankly...are you serious? First of all, Merc "races" their drivers until first pit stop. Even if other driver saved tires and can go longer and faster, he would go into pits because that is "100% fair". Well, that was in 2014 when they had 2s on entire field. Now its 2017, Ferrari didn't win title for 10 years and you can bet your final dollar they don't give a damn if Kimi couldn't build gap bigger then 1s over his teammate (that he actually started with) in entire 1st stint. They let them race and that meant Vettel could bang 4 laps in clean air because, well, his tires could take it and they were fastest by almost a second over the entire field. Why pit your WDC leader when he can still bang few blinders and his teammate has to change tires? Because Merc did it 3 years ago when they had 200+ pts over next best team? Please. :lol:
Last edited by ferkan on 30 May 2017, 17:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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Sieper wrote:
30 May 2017, 16:18
Big Mangalhit wrote:
30 May 2017, 15:46
Most people who are complaining about Ferrari allegadelly team orders are actually complaining that Ferrari gave Vettel a chance to win. They just come up with scenarios in which Vet would not have a chance to produce fast laps and make him pit immediately after kimi to insure that Kimi would win being the slowest driver.

Isn't that really team orders?
Was it not better for the show to have those 4/5 ball to the wall (literally cause... monaco) laps that decided the win?
1. Who will most likely win this years WDC?--->.....
2. who will be his most likely competitor for that title?--->....
3. How bad would it have hurt if the last race the driver from answer 1 falls 2 points short to driver of answer 2?
4. Who won sunday on a circuit where zero overtakes happened and where an undercut already failed and it was known the US were superior to the SS and could be had to race end (were it not for the rules you have to change compound).

In my viewpoint the answer on question 3 has been asked (and answered) in the Ferrari booth last weekend.

You really didn't get my point at all. Of course the outcome was best for Ferrari. But while everybody is arguing if it was done on purpose or not I am trying to say that anyway it was a fair move.

Kimi still could've won whit that strategy if he was faster in the in and outlap and in the SS (all 3 where he didn't match Vettel's) he could also try to get a buffer during the 30 laps before which he was unable.
Vettel won cause he was faster and had an opportunity to show how fast he was.
I feel the only way of a driver with Kimi's pace to win is if Ferrari deliberately does a bad stratagy on Vettel in order for him to not have a chance to show his speed. That for me is worse for the fairness of the fight, mandating that the driver behind even tho is faster by quite a margin can't fight.

And perhaps more important that for me was the moment of the race, when both drivers had to really go full beans to fight for the win although in different parts of the track. In order to win there you really had to risk a crash and losing all. I really don't get how an F1 fan would rather had Ferrari tell Vettel to stand down or castrate him in a stratagy that would bring "fairness"

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Sieper
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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Oh it certainly could be fair, if you want to believe that. I asked myself question 3 and feel it is unfair to Kimi how it turned out. There is little question (to me) that Vettel has a better race pace even. But Imagine Vettel would be Hamilton chasing down Kimi (instead of a Ferrari 1 - 2 like it was) would Ferrari have opted for the same strategy? No, they would have waited for Hamilton to Pit and only then pit the next round.

ferkan
ferkan
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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Only because Kimi can be as slow as he want and 2nd car cant pass him. It becomes problem when 2 of your cars are 1-2 and 2nd car is faster then 1st. Because then you either pit 2nd one that could go faster, and being that he is only 1.1s down he undercuts 1st one, or you get on with what was the deal before race and pit 1st one, that is slower one, and give him in process faster tires.

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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Sieper wrote:
30 May 2017, 17:16
Oh it certainly could be fair, if you want to believe that. I asked myself question 3 and feel it is unfair to Kimi how it turned out. There is little question (to me) that Vettel has a better race pace even. But Imagine Vettel would be Hamilton chasing down Kimi (instead of a Ferrari 1 - 2 like it was) would Ferrari have opted for the same strategy? No, they would have waited for Hamilton to Pit and only then pit the next round.
Well if it was Ham in a merc in number two with exactly those times and Ferrari waited for Ham to pit has you suggest then Ham would'se made the undercut and come out first to win the race. When the second car is that much faster than the first it is hard to defend one way or the other, merc did that to Ferrari many many times last years

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Sieper
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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He would not have. You cannot undercut in Monaco on this years (cold) SS versus operating temperature US. What happened last year on other circuits is no reference.

But it is safe to say that even if you don't agree with my viewpoint, nobody can come and say "Ferrari" gave a team order and switched out 1 and 2. They played it clever enough for that and a lot of people even feel the need to defend it as a real feat by Vettel whilst I strongly feel otherwise (And I accept Vettel had the better pace of the two).

ferkan
ferkan
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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Actually, you could undercut. Thats what Verstappen went for and almost pulled it off had it not been for very, very slow pit stop.

Basically, at 34th lap, new SS were faster for big majority of drivers (including Kimi)

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Zynerji
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Re: 2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

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ferkan wrote:
30 May 2017, 18:20
Actually, you could undercut. Thats what Verstappen went for and almost pulled it off had it not been for very, very slow pit stop.

Basically, at 34th lap, new SS were faster for big majority of drivers (including Kimi)
...apparently not fast enough.