2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

[Sieper]

MV came in too hot and missed his marks.

No. he did not. And that is also not what Christian Horner said in the post race interview. He just stated the pit position is somewhat awkward, small and off skew and that could have played a role in the front right hand corner wheel not going on totally smoothly, costing 0.8 seconds (as compared to Ricci's pitstop later) and Max the undercut on Bottas. It was jus a neat way of saying I don't judge my team (totally) for the somewhat slow pitstop, it was awkward to do here.

[Phil]

@basti313;

To be fair; i find the whole discussion quite fascinating and with merit. You delivered convincing arguments on why Ferrari felt they were under threat to pit. The big and more relevant question is if Ferrari knew that pitting later would potentially be quicker or if they genuinely felt they gave their leading driver the best possible strategy. Sadly, logic would suggest that they wanted Vettel to win. He is leading the WDC with quite an impressive margin already and has been been the more consistent performer so far. It would be crazy not to back him. Despite Ferrari's form and Mercedes looking at themselves as the "underdogs", I still think that most people (me included) think that Mercedes remain the team to beat. They might be struggling, but I think they have a lot of potential and may still have the quickest package when it works.

And the merit behind discussing the motives behind if Ferrari knew what they were doing or not? Well, it certainly has an impact on how Mercedes will decide to manage their drivers in the future. I have already seen Niki quoted (by AMuS) to have said that they will not tolerate either of their drivers holding each other up, though he did add that it would be decided on situation and circumstance - whatever that means. So by how much Ferrari is leading this championship does have a barring on how far Mercerdes might be willing to go on their entire equality ethos. Either way, next time Bottas seems to be holding up Hamilton, I would expect them to be rather quick on the radio to tell him to "speed up or let his teammate pass".

[CLKGTR]

On this day in 1992. – Senna halts Mansell’s hot streak

https://maxf1.net/en/on-this-day-in-199 ... ot-streak/

Sorry if there is some more appropriate thread for this, but I haven't found it...

[giantfan10]

@basti313;

To be fair; i find the whole discussion quite fascinating and with merit. You delivered convincing arguments on why Ferrari felt they were under threat to pit. The big and more relevant question is if Ferrari knew that pitting later would potentially be quicker or if they genuinely felt they gave their leading driver the best possible strategy. Sadly, logic would suggest that they wanted Vettel to win. He is leading the WDC with quite an impressive margin already and has been been the more consistent performer so far. It would be crazy not to back him. Despite Ferrari's form and Mercedes looking at themselves as the "underdogs", I still think that most people (me included) think that Mercedes remain the team to beat. They might be struggling, but I think they have a lot of potential and may still have the quickest package when it works.

And the merit behind discussing the motives behind if Ferrari knew what they were doing or not? Well, it certainly has an impact on how Mercedes will decide to manage their drivers in the future. I have already seen Niki quoted (by AMuS) to have said that they will not tolerate either of their drivers holding each other up, though he did add that it would be decided on situation and circumstance - whatever that means. So by how much Ferrari is leading this championship does have a barring on how far Mercerdes might be willing to go on their entire equality ethos. Either way, next time Bottas seems to be holding up Hamilton, I would expect them to be rather quick on the radio to tell him to "speed up or let his teammate pass".

In response to the bold text.....Mercedes is trailing in the drivers championship and constructors championship so far this year . Secondly taking care of and getting the max from your tires is obviously a very important part of this formula for every team. The must current narrative on Mercedes is that they have no clue why their car reacts the way it does to the tires. what exactly are you basing your optimism about Mercedes on? Last years results? eternal optimism? enlighten me please.

[basti313]

@basti313;

To be fair; i find the whole discussion quite fascinating and with merit.

Thanks, same for you!

Sadly, logic would suggest that they wanted Vettel to win. He is leading the WDC with quite an impressive margin already and has been been the more consistent performer so far. It would be crazy not to back him.

True. Usually I would say "if it says 'meow', it is usually no dog"
But here: Looking at the timing, I think the Ferrari strategists were simply scared to loose the 1/2 finish. They had no idea about the SS tire and cars close behind with fast numbers. I simply do not see the gap to "play" with your lead car some switching games with mediocre strategy.

Despite Ferrari's form and Mercedes looking at themselves as the "underdogs", I still think that most people (me included) think that Mercedes remain the team to beat. They might be struggling, but I think they have a lot of potential and may still have the quickest package when it works.

Also true. As soon as Merc gets the tires to work more consistent, which will happen sooner or later, they are ahead again.

I have already seen Niki quoted (by AMuS)

`
Wasn`t there even an interview where he openly talked about Nr.1 for Ham?
Anyway, he will support Ham as good as he can and without the bad weekends in Russia and Monaco this would be clear. If Ham delivers in the next two races he will be Nr.1.

Furthermore I think Merc already sacrificed Bot in Spain...running full power to defend against Vet and a few laps later the engine blows?

[Phil]

what exactly are you basing your optimism about Mercedes on? Last years results? eternal optimism? enlighten me please.

As I said; Quickest package when it works. They have shown so far that when the car works, it is as quick as the Ferrari. We have qualifying that shows this and we have had a couple of races where Mercedes at least in the hands of one of the driver showed as good pace. We have also seen that when they are facing issues, they are off the pace. It is no secret that the car seems to be very sensitive and have a very narrow operating window. Hence, when it works, it is quick, when it doesn't, it doesn't. It's not inherently slow, just difficult. And my post didn't imply optimism, it implied that the Mercedes has potential. With that I mean that the Ferrari has obviously showed strong race throughout the season so far, the Mercedes has been niggled with issues. If the latter solves the problems (the sensitivity toward the tire), I think they will be hard to beat, as they have shown in the last few races.

Feel free to disagree - we will see how the rest of the season turns out.


@basti313 - I think I actually commented on this specifically (the Spanish race) in the Mercedes team topic. In there, I outlined why I think Mercedes didn't explicitly 'use' and 'sacrifice' Bottas, even if it was way convenient for him to be in a position to hold up Vettel.

[Andres125sx]

Did anybody seriously expect Ferrari to let Raikkonen stay ahead of Vettel? VET has a realistic shot at the WDC, and with Hamilton so far back it was a golden opportunity to solidify his lead.

I knew they were always gonna swap places, and to be fair, VET did seem quicker than RAI once he got ahead of him.

It depends on how do you look at it. If you´re thinking about team orders, then yes, I agree Ferrari would always favour Vettel as he´s leading the WDC and Kimi was quite far back (almost half points), so Ferrari will do what they have been doing for decades now, favour the driver with real chances in the WDC

But if you´re talking about pure pace/merit, then Vettel will always beat Raikonnen in 95% scenarios, even if Kimi start on pole, as Seb is proving to be MUCH faster than Kimi race after race.




I like Kimi, but I sincerely think he should have retired some time ago

[Sieper]

Mwoooaaah.

[basti313]

@basti313 - I think I actually commented on this specifically (the Spanish race) in the Mercedes team topic. In there, I outlined why I think Mercedes didn't explicitly 'use' and 'sacrifice' Bottas, even if it was way convenient for him to be in a position to hold up Vettel.

I did not mean "sacrifice" in the way of loosing positions but in the way of loosing the engine. I do not think that they would run their championship contender with those mappings to either win a race or to maintain a position in front of a car he will not catch under normal circumstances. A championship contender need to secure save points like Ham did in Monaco (no crazy strategy, no touchy overtaking).
They knew they went too far with the engine in Russia. So they wanted to replace it, but could not in the end. Instead of saving the engine through the race and cruising to P3 they were playing games with Vettel...reminds me strongly about Italy 2015 where Rosberg's similarly compromised engine blew up 2 laps before 15 points when he was hunting Vettel for 3 points.

I like Kimi, but I sincerely think he should have retired some time ago

But no matter how you put it...he is the best option. Gro or Per in the car would be much worse...both are not constantly delivering, both would also be slow Nr.2 drivers but both would go boncus against Vet.
Ferrari needs to wait for a rookie, there is no one on the grid for them at the moment as I do not believe that any RedBull driver (Sai especially) is allowed to leave without cutting all RedBull connection.

[Vanja #66]

Perez finished inside points for 15 races in a row before Monaco... That's far from inconsistent. Agreed about Grosjean.

Ferrari never gets a rookie in that cockpit, just as Mercedes and Red Bull won't as well...

[Andres125sx]

I´m not sure the reason you think Grosjean or Perez would be much worse sincerely.... To me both of them are performing much better than Kimi, Perez specially is performing the opposite to Kimi, solid, consistent and achieving the max result you can expect from a FI. He´s the best of the rest (7th). There´s only 33 points between Kimi and Perez, while there are 62 between both Ferraris.... What else do you expect from Perez? He must beat a RBR, Ferrari or Mercedes with a FI?

And about Sainz... what´s the problem about cutting connection with RBR? They have drivers for the top team for years, so I don´t think Sainz should stay with them. If he receive an offer from Ferrari he should take it hands down IMO

[Phil]

I did not mean "sacrifice" in the way of loosing positions but in the way of loosing the engine. I do not think that they would run their championship contender with those mappings to either win a race or to maintain a position in front of a car he will not catch under normal circumstances. A championship contender need to secure save points like Ham did in Monaco (no crazy strategy, no touchy overtaking).

Do you have any evidence of them using a different mode? Just asking - because in the lap times I picked out when coming to my conclusions, I wasn't seeing anything beyond the normal effect of slowly degrading tires (certainly not faster laps that would indicate a more potent map being used). Even if they did use it - as per my analysis - there was just as much to be gained for Bottas by keeping Vettel behind. He was effectively battling for 1st and 2nd at that point. 1st for if he had made the 1-stop work, relative to Hamilton who would have struggled for a 1-stop, and Vettel who was on a definite 2-stop. His [Bottas] lack of pace in stint 1 meant that the 1-stop was the only way he could possibly gain a better position.

I also think that Mercedes does put a lot of emphasis on the WCC - and having any sort of DNF is very costly, no matter if it hits the leading car or the one driving behind. In that sense, I don't buy that Mercedes was willing to sacrifice one car for the others potential win, but was willing to perhaps take certain risk (on engine-strain, if indeed the case) to ensure the best possible finish for both cars.

[basti313]

Perez finished inside points for 15 races in a row before Monaco... That's far from inconsistent. Agreed about Grosjean.

You think Bahrain Q was a good appearance? Or the race in China? Or his bad Q2 in Oz?

Furthermore look at his teammate: This teammate had a horrible season in DTM and was promoted to F1 without a reason...nevertheless he is also constantly in the points. The FI is a really good car, not on par with the top 3 but clearly the Nr 4.

Ferrari never gets a rookie in that cockpit, just as Mercedes and Red Bull won't as well...

With "rookie" I mean a rookie who drives the Haas for one season and then gets promoted. I can picture that they are doing this with Gio and maybe they even put him into the Haas mid season.

And about Sainz... what´s the problem about cutting connection with RBR? They have drivers for the top team for years, so I don´t think Sainz should stay with them. If he receive an offer from Ferrari he should take it hands down IMO

Yes and no. We have seen it with Perez: Went to McLaren and lost the cockpit after one year. Pure luck that FI took him back, could have been a Maldonado end of career. The same will happen with Sainz if he does not get to pace in the first year and Gio is on the door.
As long as Sainz is at RedBull he is safe...even if they throw him out at Torro, he will get a seat in DTM, as reserve driver or whatever from RedBull. Even just running around with a RedBull cap is bringing more money than a seat in another series without RedBull.

[Vasconia]

Perez finished inside points for 15 races in a row before Monaco... That's far from inconsistent. Agreed about Grosjean.

You think Bahrain Q was a good appearance? Or the race in China? Or his bad Q2 in Oz?

Furthermore look at his teammate: This teammate had a horrible season in DTM and was promoted to F1 without a reason...nevertheless he is also constantly in the points. The FI is a really good car, not on par with the top 3 but clearly the Nr 4.

Ferrari never gets a rookie in that cockpit, just as Mercedes and Red Bull won't as well...

With "rookie" I mean a rookie who drives the Haas for one season and then gets promoted. I can picture that they are doing this with Gio and maybe they even put him into the Haas mid season.

And about Sainz... what´s the problem about cutting connection with RBR? They have drivers for the top team for years, so I don´t think Sainz should stay with them. If he receive an offer from Ferrari he should take it hands down IMO

Yes and no. We have seen it with Perez: Went to McLaren and lost the cockpit after one year. Pure luck that FI took him back, could have been a Maldonado end of career. The same will happen with Sainz if he does not get to pace in the first year and Gio is on the door.
As long as Sainz is at RedBull he is safe...even if they throw him out at Torro, he will get a seat in DTM, as reserve driver or whatever from RedBull. Even just running around with a RedBull cap is bringing more money than a seat in another series without RedBull.

But you have to take some risks if you want to drive a topcar. I still think that Renault is the most interesting Project. With time they will develop a top car and I am sure that Hulkenberg and Saiz woud receive an equal treatment. If you go to Ferrari, unless you beat clearly the top driver you know what will be your role.

[Andres125sx]

The FI is a really good car, not on par with the top 3 but clearly the Nr 4.

And Perez is 7th in the WDC so, what are you trying to say mate? Perez is at the highest position he can dream about, and has finished over that anytime any top driver had some problem, like his 4th in Spain

Really, what are you expecting from Perez?

Yes and no. We have seen it with Perez: Went to McLaren and lost the cockpit after one year. Pure luck that FI took him back

Pure luck???

So you think F1 teams make their decisions based on luck or some arbitrary parameter?

Be serious man, Perez is on that seat because he´s a VERY good driver, and teams do know

The same will happen with Sainz

I find it amazing how people like you who can see the future don´t use that awesome power to predict euromillions numbers, or some terrorist attack to prevent it. What are you doing here in F1T? You should be working for CIA, OTAN or something similar...