2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

[Jolle]

AMuS: (my comments in brackets)

Hamilton cleared by data, did the same speed on the earlier and the later restarts, Vettel only accelerated there so that Hamilton could not trick him like he did on the first restart where there was a huge gap right away (which means Vettel just did not pay attention and the initial collision was already his fault)

What prevented a DSQ for Vettel was that they felt he acted on the impulse that he was brake tested (which means that _feeling_ you were wronged justifies ramming another car) and they did not want to interfere in the WDC (which they kinda did anyways by handing out a lax penalty)

They were really close to DSQing him though.

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Funniest thing in all this is that Kvyat got a 10s stop&go for driving safely through the field and not rambo-ing through it in order to not collide with those who were warming their tyres in canada - there's just no proportionality in penalties whatsoever.

Are those comments official if so it is a sad sad very sad day for F1. I've been watching F1 since the year Villeneuve won. After Shumi's all points were erased because of intentional ramming during the race. Since than I've never seen anything like this. Intentional ramming has 10 sec penalty, wow. I am really in disbelief. I even think that what Vettel did was even worse since it was not even during the race. He was fighting for basically nothing it was pure teenager road rage.

to be fair, Schumacher was a second offender after the Hill/1994 incident what wasn't penalised. The points loss for the whole year was also a bit making that right.

But still, yes. Vettel should pay more then two places and a few licence points.

[Jolle]

what they could have done was giving Vettel the 10 second stop and go for driving into the back of Hamilton and having the wheel banging investigated "after the race".

Now (with all the backlash and Vettel having no remorse whatsoever) the possibilities of the stewards are fairly limited.

[wesley123]

I found it hihgly interesting that VET asked why he got a 10 second stop-and-go penalty over the radio - not once, but twice. To me this genuinely sounded as if he didn't have the slightest idea. Given the nature of the incident, it should have been obvious why he was given the penalty. If we take a look at the post race interview, again he appeared to be absolutely clueless as to why he was given the penalty and didn't even seem to recall at all that he ran into the side of HAM's car.

It's like a kid in the playground. Another kid kicks a football against his head, and his reaction would be angry, so he hits the kid in the face. This kid will feel like he is fully justified in his actions because the other kicked the ball against his head. This is the emotional level of an 8 year old.

The sole reason why VET would do this is if he feels that he cannot win in another way, and that isn't a good sign this early in the WDC.

[RZS10]

What prevented a DSQ for Vettel was that they felt he acted on the impulse that he was brake tested (which means that _feeling_ you were wronged justifies ramming another car)

Are those comments official if so it is a sad sad very sad day for F1. I've been watching F1 since the year Villeneuve won. After Shumi's all points were erased because of intentional ramming during the race. Since than I've never seen anything like this. Intentional ramming has 10 sec penalty, wow. I am really in disbelief. I even think that what Vettel did was even worse since it was not even during the race. He was fighting for basically nothing it was pure teenager road rage.

Yeah I don't really get that either. If you reason Vettel's agression as an impulse, than the same logic can be perfectly applied on Schumacher's 97' agression (as the title was on the line and one could argue he panicked). Yet Schumacher justifiably got his points removed. I wouldn't go as far for Vettel, but a DSQ should have been given to hand out a strong message. The action taken undermines sportmanship.

We have seen something similar in the more recent past however. Think about Maldonado against Hamilton in 2011, I believe on Spa Francochamp.

This is from the article (original/translation)

Die Sportkommissare hörten auch die Funksprüche ab und registrierten, das Vettel am Funk erbost rief: „Das war ein Bremstest, ein Bremstest.“

The stewards listened to all radio calls and heard that Vettel angrily yelled "This was a brake test, a brake test"

Das hat den WM-Spitzenreiter vermutlich vor einer höheren Strafe bewahrt.

This presumably saved the wdc leader from a harsher penalty.

Die Schiedsrichter erkannten daran, dass die Reaktion von Vettel auf einer falschen Annahme beruhte.

The stewards recognised that Vettel's reaction was based on a wrong assumption.
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I do not know who was their source but if this is really the case it's a bloody joke - if i slam my car into someone because i FEEL that i was cut off on the highway i would lose my fukin driver's license and potentially go to jail ... no one would care whether i was actually cut off or not.

[Jolle]

Are those comments official if so it is a sad sad very sad day for F1. I've been watching F1 since the year Villeneuve won. After Shumi's all points were erased because of intentional ramming during the race. Since than I've never seen anything like this. Intentional ramming has 10 sec penalty, wow. I am really in disbelief. I even think that what Vettel did was even worse since it was not even during the race. He was fighting for basically nothing it was pure teenager road rage.

Yeah I don't really get that either. If you reason Vettel's agression as an impulse, than the same logic can be perfectly applied on Schumacher's 97' agression (as the title was on the line and one could argue he panicked). Yet Schumacher justifiably got his points removed. I wouldn't go as far for Vettel, but a DSQ should have been given to hand out a strong message. The action taken undermines sportmanship.

We have seen something similar in the more recent past however. Think about Maldonado against Hamilton in 2011, I believe on Spa Francochamp.

This is from the article (original/translation)

Die Sportkommissare hörten auch die Funksprüche ab und registrierten, das Vettel am Funk erbost rief: „Das war ein Bremstest, ein Bremstest.“

The stewards listened to all radio calls and heard that Vettel angrily yelled "This was a brake test, a brake test"

Das hat den WM-Spitzenreiter vermutlich vor einer höheren Strafe bewahrt.

This presumably saved the wdc leader from a harsher penalty.

Die Schiedsrichter erkannten daran, dass die Reaktion von Vettel auf einer falschen Annahme beruhte.

The stewards recognised that Vettel's reaction was based on a wrong assumption.
___
I do not know who was their source but if this is really the case it's a bloody joke - if i slam my car into someone because i FEEL that i was cut off on the highway i would lose my fukin driver's license and potentially go to jail ... no one would care whether i was actually cut off or not.

For me this is almost worse. He also misjudged Hams speed. Not only a road rage course, but also a trip past specsavers.

At least the didn’t told someone to f-off on the radio this time. Is that progress?

[Wynters]

Wow! What a massive outbreak of incompetence. Hamilton's headrest, Vettel ramming Hamilton, Bottas going into Kimi, Ocon squeezin Perez into a wall, Ericsson on Wherlein, Ferrari sending Kimi down the pitlane without a steering wheel, Hulk driving into a wall, Kvyat missing the first corner then piling back on the track indirectly taking out his team mate, ridiculous steward calls , etc, etc, etc.

Absolutely bonkers race.

End results that matter? Vettel extends his lead. Bottas in with a sniff if there's a DNF. Honda get points. Everything else is just hot air.

[iotar__]

"The FIA investigation, conducted during the race, showed that Hamilton had behaved exactly the same in that area of the track at both the controversial restart and the incident-free one before."

- Come on that's not enough. So the reference point is the other not compatible event? Was the other car - Vettel - at exactly the same place/speed/acceleration/lifting. The point of brake testing is it happens in relation to the other car.
- What are they trying to pretend, that Hamilton wasn't affecting the other car's speed, position, place in a different manner on this occasion?

How can it be "exactly the same" ? We're talking SC left right stop and go random swirling not full speed set braking points over 10 laps. It was dangerous driving and they all at FIA know it. Why? Because this time (not previous time) it ended up in a collision, Hamilton knew exactly what he was doing, he caused it, not Vettel. Simple as that.

What about the other side? Where is the telemetry? Was Vettel's reaction late, was he too close (unlike the other time)? No and no because at these speeds/lines you drive according to the other car.

You know when they are BS by the way they are selling it. "Previous situation" my a... They ignored Verstappen's Spa braking points and moves (were they the same as on the previous laps, like hell they were), ignored Alonso Massa USA, ignored Spain '16 and now this. Sod this farce.

[drunkf1fan]

Wow! What a massive outbreak of incompetence. Hamilton's headrest, Vettel ramming Hamilton, Bottas going into Kimi, Ocon squeezin Perez into a wall, Ericsson on Wherlein, Ferrari sending Kimi down the pitlane without a steering wheel, Hulk driving into a wall, Kvyat missing the first corner then piling back on the track indirectly taking out his team mate, ridiculous steward calls , etc, etc, etc.

Absolutely bonkers race.

End results that matter? Vettel extends his lead. Bottas in with a sniff if there's a DNF. Honda get points. Everything else is just hot air.

While some of this is true for sure and Vettel shouldn't have had a chance to finish ahead of Hamilton, Bottas and Ocon were making genuine attempts to move. Both hit the curb a bit too hard and in both cases the contact pushed them wide. I still think Ocon could have avoided hte contact being as bad but he is also a rookie.

Sainz and Kvyat though you've got completely wrong. Sainz saw Kvyat go wide, every driver I've ever seen in F1 would have come back on there, this wasn't Kimi coming back on in Silverstone and causing a red flag. Kvyat stayed extremely tight to the wall and wasn't close to hitting Sainz. If Sainz didn't react at all and stayed on the line, there looked to be a foot of space between them, maybe more. Sainz massively over reacted to a car he saw go off and knew would come back on. Kvyat did incredibly well, he didn't touch Sainz and Sainz had a huge amount of space to move over calmly to his left and create more space if he felt he needed it. This was 100% Sainz's fault. Guys go wide in T1 almost every single race, they have to come back on, just because a driver says someone came back on like a madman doesn't make it so, same way Vettel saying he was brake checked or didn't hit Hamilton a second time doesn't make it so. Kvyat did very well, Sainz reacted like an amateur both in his driving and attitude in response to his own mistake.

[ESPImperium]

Personally, id ban the pair, Hamilton was clearly trying to back up the pack however something slowed him. Vettel with his road rage was dangerous. Id ban both for two races, bring both drivers to both races, send VET to anger management classes, send HAM to drivers standards classes. Place WHE in the Mercedes, place GIO in the Ferrari and then Sauber can get a pay driver for two races, maybe bring back NAS for them?

These standards need to be stopped as this will now bubble away. This will now bring bad blood into the championship, both are gonna wrong each other more than once. This will end badly, this could get worse than HAM/ROS. The FIA need to nip it in the bud, ban both, apportion blame equally, both are the victim, and it sends a message into the paddock for all to see and be heeded.

Bad driving standards and practice needs to be sorted now. Id like to see a rule on when the safety car leaves the pack, the leader must apportion to a delta all safety car line 1 or some line on track when they can go hell for leather, maybe 1KM from turn 1?

[NathanOlder]

Ssshh up for once iotar, Lewis was doing what he did before and after, if Seb was closer, whos fault is that, If seb was going faster whose fault is that. You think people are going to believe you over what the FIA/Stewards have stated. Give us a break pal.

[Wynters]

- Come on that's not enough. So the reference point is the other not compatible event? Was the other car - Vettel - at exactly the same place/speed/acceleration/lifting. The point of brake testing is it happens in relation to the other car.
- What are they trying to pretend, that Hamilton wasn't affecting the other car's speed, position, place in a different manner on this occasion?

... Hamilton knew exactly what he was doing, he caused it, not Vettel. Simple as that.

Andrew Benson
"Stewards examined Hamilton's car data in Vettel incident. Did not brake or lift off completely. Maintained more or less constant speed."

So, Hamilton drifts through that corner as he has every other time. Vettel drives into the back of him and it's Hamilton's fault. Ok, I guess it's Massa's fault that he and Sainz hit last race? I mean, Massa was going through that corner like he always had, except this time Sainz was behind him and Massa didn't account for the Spaniard choosing to take the corner differently. I'm amazed, AMAZED, the Massa didn't get a massive penalty for it. Actually, considering Massa braked and Hamilton DID NOT BRAKE, I'm amazed Massa was allowed to line up for Baku at all.

[Restomaniac]

Wow! What a massive outbreak of incompetence. Hamilton's headrest, Vettel ramming Hamilton, Bottas going into Kimi, Ocon squeezin Perez into a wall, Ericsson on Wherlein, Ferrari sending Kimi down the pitlane without a steering wheel, Hulk driving into a wall, Kvyat missing the first corner then piling back on the track indirectly taking out his team mate, ridiculous steward calls , etc, etc, etc.

Absolutely bonkers race.

End results that matter? Vettel extends his lead. Bottas in with a sniff if there's a DNF. Honda get points. Everything else is just hot air.

No end result is that you can drive deliberately into an opposition drivers car and a drive through will be your punishment as long as you are annoyed and have made an incorrect assumption.

So last race. Hamilton needs to score 1 point more than Vettel and on the last lap and is closely behind Vettel. So he finds a way to get annoyed at Vettel and drives into him knowing that if he gets lucky and comes off the will just get a drive through. After all getting annoyed and jumping to the wrong impression means you can't possibly be DQ'd.

Do the FIA not remember Prost/Senna? I know that was on the first corner but still.

[Restomaniac]

Personally, id ban the pair, Hamilton was clearly trying to back up the pack however something slowed him. Vettel with his road rage was dangerous. Id ban both for two races, bring both drivers to both races, send VET to anger management classes, send HAM to drivers standards classes. Place WHE in the Mercedes, place GIO in the Ferrari and then Sauber can get a pay driver for two races, maybe bring back NAS for them?

These standards need to be stopped as this will now bubble away. This will now bring bad blood into the championship, both are gonna wrong each other more than once. This will end badly, this could get worse than HAM/ROS. The FIA need to nip it in the bud, ban both, apportion blame equally, both are the victim, and it sends a message into the paddock for all to see and be heeded.

Bad driving standards and practice needs to be sorted now. Id like to see a rule on when the safety car leaves the pack, the leader must apportion to a delta all safety car line 1 or some line on track when they can go hell for leather, maybe 1KM from turn 1?

Backing the pack up behind the SC is what drivers have always done.

[Wynters]

Personally, id ban the pair, Hamilton was clearly trying to back up the pack however something slowed him. Vettel with his road rage was dangerous.

Stewards looked at telemetry and found that Hamilton "Did not brake or lift off completely. Maintained more or less constant speed." Interesting that you apportion this as being equally bad as deliberately sideswiping a car, on a street circuit where there are walls rather than run off areas.

Suppose Ham's front left suspension had been damaged, popped under braking and he went straight into the wall? I suppose that's just as dangerous as not getting out of Vettel's way under a safety car.

[Jolle]

Personally, id ban the pair, Hamilton was clearly trying to back up the pack however something slowed him. Vettel with his road rage was dangerous. Id ban both for two races, bring both drivers to both races, send VET to anger management classes, send HAM to drivers standards classes. Place WHE in the Mercedes, place GIO in the Ferrari and then Sauber can get a pay driver for two races, maybe bring back NAS for them?

These standards need to be stopped as this will now bubble away. This will now bring bad blood into the championship, both are gonna wrong each other more than once. This will end badly, this could get worse than HAM/ROS. The FIA need to nip it in the bud, ban both, apportion blame equally, both are the victim, and it sends a message into the paddock for all to see and be heeded.

Bad driving standards and practice needs to be sorted now. Id like to see a rule on when the safety car leaves the pack, the leader must apportion to a delta all safety car line 1 or some line on track when they can go hell for leather, maybe 1KM from turn 1?

What was wrong in backing up the field? The SC rules are written with this in mind? A close field all strung like a bow until the leader decides to go.

He didn’t just followed the letter of the rule, but even the spirit.