2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

[Restomaniac]

It's almost matchfixing tbh. If Vettel ends up winning the Championship by a margin, I could expect people to look back on this very decisive moment meaning if he would have been DSQ'ed or received a race ban or some sort, he wouldn't have won the Championship, but yeah it's been done and dealt sadly, so we have to move on now.

Yes...and no. As long as you treat the people in competition with each other the same then it shouldn't impact the result. So, if Ham does the same (or effectively the same) in the next race, they could issue the same penalty and it would all even out. Or at least, I'm guessing that's their thinking.

However, the problem for me lies in the gray areas and the precedent. Is RIC, BOT, VER or RAI the same as Vettel and Hamilton? If Bottas had done this to Verstappen, would the penalty have been the same? Or, even worse, can the 'bigger' drivers now just bully the little drivers? Grosjean doesn't get out of the way of 'insert big name driver here' as fast as that driver would have liked and, as a result gets deliberately rammed off the track and into the wall in a display of childish petulance. No meaningful penalty because 'insert big name driver here' is involved in the championship?

During the race, just after Hamilton's pitstop, Perez blocked him for the whole lap, despite the blue flags, and Vettel got out in front of Hamilton. Let's pretend that Hamilton, feeling agrieved, sideswipes Perez on the main straight (knowing that Perez isn't involved in the championship and he is so he'll only get a slap on the wrist). That's the part that most worries me. It's only a matter of time before that sort of move does serious damage. I remember Buemi's front suspension failing at the end of the long straight in China '10. Suppose a 'but muh feelz' revenge ramming causes a crack in someone's suspension and triggers that sort of accident, but this time there isn't enough run off area?

This is what amazes me.
Look at Prost/Senna. A blind eye was turned, different rules for drivers and it escalated. All because the the issue wasn't nailed down and nipped in the bud early and we all know what happened next. If me, just fan knows the score how can people who actually run the sport not see what they have just done and what is maybe coming next?

[Xero]

I thought this was meant to be a technical forum filled with insightful and rational chat... what's happening to it?! I can't believe some of the bile I'm reading.

I'm by no means Hamilton fan, but he did nothing wrong at all. Let's get into the TECHNICAL side of it;
- At that stage of the safety car procedure, Lewis control's the pace. He did not back the pack up any differently to any other time, the safety car was still in full view at the time of the incident. We all heard the drivers complain about the pace of the safety car, hence the abnormally slow speeds at that point. You can't blame Lewis for that.
- Sure, Lewis scrubbed 15kph going through the corner. Coasting through a 90 degree corner will absolutely scrub speed off due to friction, it's physics. Coasting will also cause harvesting through engine braking, as opposed to brake-by-wire harvesting through braking. Don't assume harvesting indicates pressing the brake pedal. Loss of speed in that instance is perfectly normal, but to insinuate brake testing is ridiculous at best.
- Vettel visibly picked up speed through the corner, so a double whammy leading to the contact. He was probably keen on avoiding being caught out on the restart, and got too close. Vettel's responsibility, and also his mistake.

What happened next is inexcusable. I do hope the FIA take retrospective action. While future race bans might be harsh, a DQ from this race is certainly a fitting punishment. Was actually rooting for Vettel this season, but I've lost a lot of respect for him after that.

[i70q7m7ghw]

The stewards have cleared Hamilton and said that the telemetry showed he didn't brake test Vettel, and drove that corner the same as he did on all previous restarts.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3550 ... t-restart/

Very little is being said about the second incident. Vettel won't talk about it, just skips over it, and Toto wouldn't be drawn in on it.

[drunkf1fan]

Seeing as the data shows that Hamilton didn't have any type of dramatic slow/brake as Vettel claimed, the ten second stop & go is laughable. Silver lining, given the oil burning issue, I expect Mercedes to more consistently lock out the front row and the championship is going to start leaning in the Mercedes direction faster still.

Have to keep you eye on the big picture on days such as this.

I think it's important to point out Vettel specifically claimed Hamilton accelerated then braked.... and he actually did neither at all. He slowed a little because that is what you do, both with the safety car coming to the end(every driver does this) and it's natural for speed to be scrubbed off as you turn. His job is to not act erratically, no sudden acceleration or braking that can't be expected or could be dangerous. He definitely did neither but Vettel is stating he accelerated while half the haters are saying he braked out of the corner, even if he did... which he didn't, that doesn't even match Vettel's story.

[WaikeCU]

What struck me and I find it kind of funny and suspicious. They were still investigating this when the race was restarted after the red flag but then Lewis had this headrest issue that was ongoing for a couple of laps. Yet, still no result came out of that investigation of this. Then Merc ordered Lewis to pit and... (you could see where I'm going here) once Lewis was entering the pitlane, they threw in the 10 seconds stop-and-go for Seb.

So what I make of this is:

- The outcome of this controversy lies within the hands of the race officials
- To me handing it over to race officials means that they have the power now to decide the outcome of the race of certain indiviuals (Lewis and Seb)
- Prior Lewis' headrest issue, Lewis and Seb were 1 and 2, which is the perfect outcome for the race and the season imo. Both drivers are still in close contention and Lewis who is 2nd in the Championship will close up the gap. If they didn't intervene it would just be fuel for discussions.
- By not acting on the investigation, means that the race officials still had control on the race as long the race hasn't finished yet.
- Now, Lewis' headrest issue meant he needed to pit, which would mean he would lose massive time and go down the order. Seb however, would be leading the race, but with the ongoing investigation and what lead to the investigation, it would be a huge controversy if Seb would take massive benefit of the situation.
- Race officials save themselves by handing a stop-and-go of 10 seconds to Seb in the hope it would still put him behind Lewis. Little did they know Lewis first had a slow stop to change the headrest and then had to deal with cars ahead which means Lewis lost even more time and Seb still had time and basically would come out in front of Lewis, in which he eventually did.

And that's how it eventually ended. But are you with me with the fact that when there's an investigation a race result and the Championships standing is in the hands of race directors. They then have that power to influence it?

[n4rf]

I honestly don't think Seb ran into Hamiltons side intentionally. If you watch the maybe 5 seconds between him raising both hands and the actual hit, you can see that he makes 2 steering wheel inputs. First, sharply to the left to get alongside him. Then to the right, staying at a bit more to the right lock than dead ahead. He keeps this same amount of right lock until the collision. Almost at the same time as he steers to the right he waves his left arm and only ever looks towards Hamilton.
There is no driving alongside and then steering to the right, it is left-right-bang. Steering to the right was necessary to get to a straight line again after steering left. It could be a classic case of "you drive where you look" paired with a fury/adrenaline induced misjudgement of the situation or just not realizing how close he was getting to the car or that he was not driving straight at all.
At first, I thought it might have been driving alongside and an overly eager twitch to the right to "scare" Hamilton. This has been done by many drivers who were annoyed by lapped cars or people driving slowly in FP or Quali. Also during overtakes it is common to see someone violently pushing someone to the side. None of the involved drivers has a white vest on that.
However, looking at the video Sebs onboard over and over again, I do not think, that was the case. Thus, the first explanation I've written down.
One issue for all of us is probably, that we don't have the slightest clue of what these guys are capable or not capable of in stressful situations like that and how different stresses affect them differently.

To me, the penalty was fine. The first incident alone would have been a "racing incident" or "no further action warranted" with maybe telling drivers to be more careful in SC situations at the next driver briefing. Assuming the side hit was not intentional (how would it be, honestly? it's pretty much 1/3 taking Ham out, 1/3 taking Seb out, 1/3 taking both out.) but still very dangerous, especially under SC, the given penalty was perfectly justified, just as well as the points for the license. But that's it.

[Squid]

Why is everyone so sure that Vettel intentionally turned into Hamilton? Is there really absolutely no possibility that he did it accidentally? And please, don't say "just look at the replay". The best angle we have shows Vettel straightening his car after getting alongside Hamilton but never fully straightening his steering wheel before turning his head and attention towards Hamilton. His steering input in the moments before contact was very erratic, showing that he wasn't paying attention to keeping his car straight. You can easily argue a case of misjudgement instead of intentional crash.

The stewards say that they looked at Hamilton's telemetry and concluded that he did nothing wrong. Alright, we all accept that.
The stewards also say that what Vettel did wasn't enough to warrant a disqualification. Barely, but it wasn't.

If the first conclusion was drawn from information that only they have, why can't the second conclusion be the same? Maybe they saw what I saw and decided to give Vettel the benefit of doubt? Keep in mind that disqualification is an EXTREMELY harsh punishment, one that should not be used if there's any reasonable doubt left. You can argue all you want, but we have very limited information. We might get more info in the coming days that can prove whether Vettel intentionally hit Hamilton or not, but until then, how about we calm the f*** down?

[ClarkBT11]

Why is everyone so sure that Vettel intentionally turned into Hamilton? Is there really absolutely no possibility that he did it accidentally? And please, don't say "just look at the replay". The best angle we have shows Vettel straightening his car after getting alongside Hamilton but never fully straightening his steering wheel before turning his head and attention towards Hamilton. His steering input in the moments before contact was very erratic, showing that he wasn't paying attention to keeping his car straight. You can easily argue a case of misjudgement instead of intentional crash.

The stewards say that they looked at Hamilton's telemetry and concluded that he did nothing wrong. Alright, we all accept that.
The stewards also say that what Vettel did wasn't enough to warrant a disqualification. Barely, but it wasn't.

If the first conclusion was drawn from information that only they have, why can't the second conclusion be the same? Maybe they saw what I saw and decided to give Vettel the benefit of doubt? Keep in mind that disqualification is an EXTREMELY harsh punishment, one that should not be used if there's any reasonable doubt left. You can argue all you want, but we have very limited information. We might get more info in the coming days that can prove whether Vettel intentionally hit Hamilton or not, but until then, how about we calm the f*** down?

When Vettel was asked post race "did you crash into Hamilton on purpose" and didn't deny it, also avoided to answer the question and see his body language change. Wouldn't that be the perfect time to say it was in the heat of the race and unintentionally hit Hamilton. Instead smirked and said that's what you get. If it was perfectly​ innocent Vettel would of apologised. I think working for Ferrari and finally being in the title race is getting to his head and the rules don't apply to him, which they haven't he's allowed to break them once but next time someone breaks the rule he has, gets the right punishment. Obviously FIA don't want to ruin the battle between Mercedes and Ferrari for the good of F1.

[Moose]

Why is everyone so sure that Vettel intentionally turned into Hamilton? Is there really absolutely no possibility that he did it accidentally?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that Vettel had no intention at all of turning into Hamilton. In this best case scenario:
1) Vettel misjudged the prior corner, accelerating harder than the car in front, and causing a collision with it.
2) He then got angry with the car in front for his own misjudgement
3) He erratically pulled along side the car in front
4) He jesticulated wildly at it, again, for his own mistake
5) He lost control of his own car because he was so focused on his own anger
6) In losing control of his own car he hit an opponent.

That's just crazy town stuff! The best case scenario is that Vettel has so little control of his emotions that he can end up crashing into people.

[Squid]

Why is everyone so sure that Vettel intentionally turned into Hamilton? Is there really absolutely no possibility that he did it accidentally? And please, don't say "just look at the replay". The best angle we have shows Vettel straightening his car after getting alongside Hamilton but never fully straightening his steering wheel before turning his head and attention towards Hamilton. His steering input in the moments before contact was very erratic, showing that he wasn't paying attention to keeping his car straight. You can easily argue a case of misjudgement instead of intentional crash.

The stewards say that they looked at Hamilton's telemetry and concluded that he did nothing wrong. Alright, we all accept that.
The stewards also say that what Vettel did wasn't enough to warrant a disqualification. Barely, but it wasn't.

If the first conclusion was drawn from information that only they have, why can't the second conclusion be the same? Maybe they saw what I saw and decided to give Vettel the benefit of doubt? Keep in mind that disqualification is an EXTREMELY harsh punishment, one that should not be used if there's any reasonable doubt left. You can argue all you want, but we have very limited information. We might get more info in the coming days that can prove whether Vettel intentionally hit Hamilton or not, but until then, how about we calm the f*** down?

When Vettel was asked post race "did you crash into Hamilton on purpose" and didn't deny it, also avoided to answer the question and see his body language change. Wouldn't that be the perfect time to say it was in the heat of the race and unintentionally hit Hamilton. Instead smirked and said that's what you get. If it was perfectly​ innocent Vettel would of apologised. I think working for Ferrari and finally being in the title race is getting to his head and the rules don't apply to him, which they haven't he's allowed to break them once but next time someone breaks the rule he has, gets the right punishment. Obviously FIA don't want to ruin the battle between Mercedes and Ferrari for the good of F1.

Come on, of course he's not gonna say anything. If anything, Arrivabene would have told him to shut it for the time being. The incident is fresh and FIA can still take further action. It's not like this is Vettel's first tango, he's done the same kind of thing before. Once the dust settles, he'll acknowledge it.

I watched the post-race interview and from his body language he was very uncomfortable. Like he knew he screwed up but had to figure out some way to deflect the question.

[Squid]

Why is everyone so sure that Vettel intentionally turned into Hamilton? Is there really absolutely no possibility that he did it accidentally?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that Vettel had no intention at all of turning into Hamilton. In this best case scenario:
1) Vettel misjudged the prior corner, accelerating harder than the car in front, and causing a collision with it.
2) He then got angry with the car in front for his own misjudgement
3) He erratically pulled along side the car in front
4) He jesticulated wildly at it, again, for his own mistake
5) He lost control of his own car because he was so focused on his own anger
6) In losing control of his own car he hit an opponent.

That's just crazy town stuff! The best case scenario is that Vettel has so little control of his emotions that he can end up crashing into people.

Oh, I agree with you, 100%.
Vettel needs some anger management classes.

[komninosm]

Funny because when schumacher did it he did it with a dignified air! And he never pretended to forget!

Hehe touche

I just watched
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekgy9Dh ... Interviews
F1 2017 Azerbaijan GP - Sebastian Vettel on Lewis Hamilton: F1 is for "grown-ups"
and it's infuriating.
The way Vettel tries to avoid answering a simple yes or no question even when the journalist (correctly) repeats the original question over and over again is beyond words now.
If there's no race ban and penalty for Ferrari then F1 is tainted this year.

[komninosm]

During the race, just after Hamilton's pitstop, Perez blocked him for the whole lap, despite the blue flags, and Vettel got out in front of Hamilton. Let's pretend that Hamilton, feeling agrieved, sideswipes Perez on the main straight (knowing that Perez isn't involved in the championship and he is so he'll only get a slap on the wrist). That's the part that most worries me. It's only a matter of time before that sort of move does serious damage. I remember Buemi's front suspension failing at the end of the long straight in China '10. Suppose a 'but muh feelz' revenge ramming causes a crack in someone's suspension and triggers that sort of accident, but this time there isn't enough run off area?

Yeah, what's up with Perez and that? He was another lap behind wasn't he? Why did he block Hamilton? And no penalty?

[dans79]

Yeah, what's up with Perez and that? He was another lap behind wasn't he? Why did he block Hamilton? And no penalty?

Because Perez only drives for or cares about Perez.

[ClarkBT11]

Come on, of course he's not gonna say anything. If anything, Arrivabene would have told him to shut it for the time being. The incident is fresh and FIA can still take further action. It's not like this is Vettel's first tango, he's done the same kind of thing before. Once the dust settles, he'll acknowledge it.

I watched the post-race interview and from his body language he was very uncomfortable. Like he knew he screwed up but had to figure out some way to deflect the question.

Wouldn't it possibly stop more penalties if he said it was a mistake instead making it look more like he intended to with a smug spoilt school boy look on his face.