European GP 2008

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:25 am

Birel99 wrote:What about vettel and Alonso in Germany! If anyone is to be penalized for pit lane battles this year it should be Vettel should have recieved a drive through for forcing alonso out of the white line.

Great drive from Massa. with two of the most demanding circuits for engines coming up we will have to see how ferrari do! or if it just an oil issue, maybe they will give up performance in favor of finishing!


Yes he should have been penalised as well. The FIA have been negligent in that issue and have now set a stupid and dangerous precedent.

Ray wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but Massa was the race leader! Is the race leader supposed to just say, 'Oh excuse me , please forgive my rudness for wanting to keep my lead intact. Please go ahead of me, after all, you are a lap down and I'm only leading the F*CKING race!!'? Please. Sutil, regardless of what time Massa exited his stall, should have given way to the race leader. End of story. That's how lapped cars are supposed to behave, on or off the track.


Erm, you are wrong - not that Massa was the race leader, but in thinking that this should have any baring whatsoever on his release from his pit box. What the hell should Sutil have done? Just sat there alongside Massa's pit box until he was safely away!? That is so disingenuous it's untrue.

Taking the hypothetical example of Massa and Hamilton pitting at the same time, with Massa leading, on a circuit where Ferrari have their pits at the entrance to the pit lane with McLaren at the other end. Would it be okay for Hamilton to be released into Massa's side? Technically he would have been leading the race at that point!

I can now see a situation where the lead is decided in this manner, with the team just paying the 10k Euros for a shot at winning the race.
myurr
 
Joined: 20 Mar 2008

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:27 am

shotzski wrote:Sorry if this is an Off-topic question:
were the Mercedes engines of Mclaren, already on their 2nd race life cycle in Valencia?


I believe so (from counting the races) but am not sure where to find the info to confirm this.
myurr
 
Joined: 20 Mar 2008

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:52 am

gcdugas wrote:
woohoo wrote:But overall the race was boring. :(
Apart from the two-three first corners of the race, there was no passing.
It was another Hungary circuit. Id rather have Long Beach back...


There was no race, only a parade. The circuit sucks. Zero overtaking. I looked like a CART track... cheezy but it was hyper-sanitary like the FIA, totally lifeless. Just a bunch of barriers and fences. I hope Singapore isn't this bad. I generally like street circuits though. I consider Spa and Albert Park to be street circuits also. Both of them provide plenty of passing too. And it looked like it was in the slums with all those shipping containers, cranes and warehouses... uggh. It isn't good for the spectators either. Do they have to come back?


I was suprised not to see more overtaking as there was plenty of overtaking in the earlier GP2 race.
gabsy
 
Joined: 20 Mar 2008

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:05 am

gabsy wrote:
gcdugas wrote:
woohoo wrote:But overall the race was boring. :(
Apart from the two-three first corners of the race, there was no passing.
It was another Hungary circuit. Id rather have Long Beach back...


There was no race, only a parade. The circuit sucks. Zero overtaking. I looked like a CART track... cheezy but it was hyper-sanitary like the FIA, totally lifeless. Just a bunch of barriers and fences. I hope Singapore isn't this bad. I generally like street circuits though. I consider Spa and Albert Park to be street circuits also. Both of them provide plenty of passing too. And it looked like it was in the slums with all those shipping containers, cranes and warehouses... uggh. It isn't good for the spectators either. Do they have to come back?


I was suprised not to see more overtaking as there was plenty of overtaking in the earlier GP2 race.


Were the teams then acting over-cautiously over the expected safety car appearances.
MattF1
 
Joined: 22 Jul 2008

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:17 am

I have my semi-scientific theory of why there were no overtakings.
Firstly there's no real straights on the circuit, so following car should stay on the same trajectory as the car ahead.
Secondly I suspect that vortices have longer living time on this track because of the walls that stop sidewinds to some degree. So the distance after the car where the quality of the airflow is bad is longer than on "normal" tracks. On practice I noticed that cars have troubles braking while following another car some 100m away.
timbo
 
Joined: 22 Oct 2007

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:28 am

MattF1 wrote:Were the teams then acting over-cautiously over the expected safety car appearances.


Probably. The thing is, the race was incredibly lifeless, apart from the podium ceremony, in which I was not particularly happy with my fellow countrymen's behaviour. Someone said they were actually booing the trophy giver, but I don't remember who he was, and I find likely it was a strategy to deflect attention by the comentators. In any case, nobody booed Hamilton in Montmelo (in the race, that is).

Now, back to the circuit, I don't understand the race we saw. If you analyse it, the track is full of low speed corners (under 150 km/h). The only corners in which you see an F1 in all its colours are corners 14 (where Fisi almost crashed) and the chained 18-19-20. To add insult to injury, every long straight (there are three) starts after a slow corner and ends in a slow corner. So, on paper, this circuit is very "bahrainish". Although I was disappointed not to see any high-speed corner section, at least I hoped to see good racing. Somehow, I got none. Is it because the track was green?

As a sidenote, I declined a lunch so that I could drive home and watch the race (alone). I got home just in time, but then I saw Alonso out of the race after three corners. Oh, great. What a waste of 7.33€ of toll and about 8l of fuel. I could have recorded it.

I'll add to my reply a response to Timbo. I don't think the lack of true straights really hampers the cars. Pedro Mtz de la Rosa said that these corners only make you turn the steering wheel a little, and that they aren't a concern at all. However, the point you make about vortices seems plausible. It could even be worse with interference and all that. However, Montreal is also mostly surrounded by walls and fences, and is a very green track, and the tarmac is in worse conditions but we have racing there (although Fernando couldn't overtake Nick).
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr
Miguel
 
Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:31 am

timbo wrote:I have my semi-scientific theory of why there were no overtakings.
Firstly there's no real straights on the circuit, so following car should stay on the same trajectory as the car ahead.
Secondly I suspect that vortices have longer living time on this track because of the walls that stop sidewinds to some degree. So the distance after the car where the quality of the airflow is bad is longer than on "normal" tracks. On practice I noticed that cars have troubles braking while following another car some 100m away.


Kimi was able to follow Heikki at a distance of 0.4s for several laps, so it may not just be aero. It could also be that it was simply too dusty off-line so drivers weren't willing to risk punting it up the inside.

It's probably also a factor that the quickest cars all qualified at the front, and pretty much everyone was on one of two strategies.

I for one am all for trying out DC's theory that banning refuelling, but allowing tyre stops, would spice things up. If the handling really does change that much as the fuel level changes (look at Ferrari between Q1-2 and Q3 - plus it always seemed to work out like that in the olden days), then it could help bring some excitement back as drivers have to make the most of their performance window while it lasts.
myurr
 
Joined: 20 Mar 2008

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:03 pm

I have to think back a long time to remember a race as boring as this. At one point I actually fell asleep. The circuit isn't at fault I believe. In this instance we just had an incredible parallel race and tyre strategy combined with very small performance differences which are not enough to overtake in this time of knife edge aerodynamics and shitty tyres. But most of this is set to change next year anyway. Massa was keeping a cool head while he had his problem with the wrong pit release by Ferrari. He could have thrown it away at this point but won the day. Kimi made a bad mistake that looked very unprofessional to me. He will have a heck of a job to make up 13 points in six races in such a close run championship. It looks like Massa will carry the flag for Ferrari this year. Ferrari seem to have more grunt than McLaren but it comes at increased risks of engine failures. Shell may not be doing such a good job as Mobile1 on the oil. If Hamilton has matured as much as his Silverstone drive suggests he should be able to grab the WDC with Massa, Reikkonen and Kubica all trailing by some points. Perhaps Kimi will then just give up and evacuate the place for Alonso. Something about Kimi looks like he is just going through the motions of being a F1 race driver.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:25 pm

Releasing a car into the path of another in the pits is definitely a serious safety issue. It doesn't matter who is leading or whatever. It's the obligation and responsibility of the car being released to make sure it has a clear, safe, and unimpeded path into the proper lane. This "mistake" could lead to a very serious crash in the pits, and the potential for serious injury is very real.

Boring procession.
Beer is cheaper than therapy.
DaveKillens
 
Joined: 20 Jan 2005

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:32 pm

I am of opinion that Massa should have let Kimi through after Massa's first pit stop. I know that at the same time, Lewis had not pitted yet and Massa could not afford to slow down. But, letting Kimi through should not be a big problem for Massa as Kimi was approaching his first pit stop and was much faster than Massa. As Kimi was held up behind Massa, he lost a lot of time in catching up Kovalainen. Had he been let through, it could be possible that he could have passed Kovalainen at pit stop and chased down Kubica. It seems that luck is not on Kimi side and he can't win a grand prix if he still qualifies off the front row and is being held up by others.
alvinkhorfire
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2008

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:57 pm

Can someone explain to me why Ferrari was allowed to remove the front wheel fairings in the middle of the race? Doesn't that violate the parc fermé rules? I understand that parc fermé ends when the race starts, but I thought that most of the restrictions on changes still applied for the duration of the race. Are all rules off once the race starts - i.e, can the teams make more substantial suspension changes, etc. if they wish to take the time during a pit stop?

If not, I'd have to think that the fairings fall under one of two categories, aero or brake ducts (if not both), both of which are restricted, yet in practice they seem unaffected by any regulation on either front.
:?
Pup
 
Joined: 8 May 2008

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:07 pm

As far as Massa pit lane incident goes, the problem to me is merely one of consistency. I've now seen the same type incident dealt with by a fine, a time penalty, a drive through penalty, and not at all. Personally, I think they do need to crack down on the problem of pit lane racing, which for some reason seems to have become common place this year.
Pup
 
Joined: 8 May 2008

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:35 pm

parc ferme only applies to the start. then teams can work on the car if necessary. It is seldom that it is done because it consumes race time.

Actually there is nothing in the regs that forbids racing in the pit lane. There is a requirement to be safe about releasing a car into the fast lane though. So I think there are points for both sides. The stewards for fining Ferrari and Ferrari for thinking it was ok as no accident happened.

some years ago nobody thought anything about it when they there was a bit of a scrap in the pit lane and it happened very rarely. there were no safety cars some years ago. The lanes were not so wide then. now that they have wider pits almost everywhere and safety cars there are more opportunities.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:51 pm

WhiteBlue wrote:Actually there is nothing in the regs that forbids racing in the pit lane. There is a requirement to be safe about releasing a car into the fast lane though. So I think there are points for both sides. The stewards for fining Ferrari and Ferrari for thinking it was ok as no accident happened.

some years ago nobody thought anything about it when they there was a bit of a scrap in the pit lane and it happened very rarely. there were no safety cars some years ago. The lanes were not so wide then. now that they have wider pits almost everywhere and safety cars there are more opportunities.


The sport has to be consistent though - if a driver goes even a fraction over the white line on pit exit or exceeds the speed limit by a fraction then a drive through penalty is applied, all in the name of safety. This is regardless of whether it leads to an accident or not.

Yet in this case a completely different penalty is arbitrarily applied even though the potential for an accident was just as severe. The FIA should have cracked down on this with the Vettel incident, and now they've set a real precedent with Massa. Shockingly poor judgment in my opinion.
myurr
 
Joined: 20 Mar 2008

Post Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:53 pm

myurr wrote:Yet in this case a completely different penalty is arbitrarily applied even though the potential for an accident was just as severe. The FIA should have cracked down on this with the Vettel incident, and now they've set a real precedent with Massa. Shockingly poor judgment in my opinion.

I think all the debate came from that "stewards will investigate car 2 blah, blah, blah" message.
Without it people would treat it as any other of the race monents (e.g. Nakajima/Alonso, DC/can't remeber who :) ).
timbo
 
Joined: 22 Oct 2007

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