British GP 2010 - Silverstone

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Post Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:51 pm

Giblet wrote:No need to yell. Remain civil. Wind your neck in. Relax.

I was merely pointing out that they were given advice that would have been smart to follow immediately.

They obviously should have listened to Charlie, but instead they made the wrong move and paid the price.


my previous message has been edited for quality.

They should have let him pass. I agree 100%. I just think the penalty was very harsh. Even more so now that the pit conversations have been posted.
ecapox
 
Joined: 14 May 2010

Post Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:56 pm

andrew wrote:I hope you don't think I'm an Alonso fan?

no i was speaking generally. I figured you're a Shumacher/vettel fan.
For Sure!!
ringo
 
Joined: 29 Mar 2009

Post Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:01 pm

Ferrari was too ambitious.
I've never seen a car go offroad and take a place outside of the first lap.
They knew the were pushing their luck leaving Alonso as is.

Giving back the space is a no brainer.
For Sure!!
ringo
 
Joined: 29 Mar 2009

Post Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:13 pm

ringo wrote:
andrew wrote:I hope you don't think I'm an Alonso fan?

no i was speaking generally. I figured you're a Shumacher/vettel fan.


Phew! Had me woried there!
andrew
 
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:41 pm

If Ferrari felt they needed to ask Charlie if the position had to be given back then they must have known that the 'pass' was dodgy in the first place. They should just have told Alonso to give the place back and then re-attack. After all, they've benefitted from being on the other side of this position in the past (Spa '08) so they can hardly scream about unfair it all is.

The real problem is that Alsono should have known that the pass was marginal at best and should have allowed the Renault back through. He's been in the game long enough to know that passing off track in such situations is always seen as dodgy by the stewards.
Just_a_fan
 
Joined: 31 Jan 2010

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:If Ferrari felt they needed to ask Charlie if the position had to be given back then they must have known that the 'pass' was dodgy in the first place. They should just have told Alonso to give the place back and then re-attack. After all, they've benefitted from being on the other side of this position in the past (Spa '08) so they can hardly scream about unfair it all is.

The real problem is that Alsono should have known that the pass was marginal at best and should have allowed the Renault back through. He's been in the game long enough to know that passing off track in such situations is always seen as dodgy by the stewards.

Hardly! This is racing, and you take any advantage that you can get! Ferrari did the right thing, and asked, within 1 sec, if it was ok. It was over 10 minutes before a penalty was announced. Ferrari REPEATIDLY asked for info, and basically were denied it. They have every right to be agrieved.
gilgen
 
Joined: 3 Apr 2010

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:18 pm

Did they forget what happened to Hamilton in 2008? In that situation Hamilton returned the place in an identical situation and was still penalised for gaining an advantage.

Having benefitted from such a penalty, Ferrari must have expected the same to apply to their driver. Of course, having had the benefit of preferential treatment for years they still expect it now. At some point they'll figure it out that they need to grow up and stop 'running to sir' at the every opportunity. I'm of the opinion that they ask Charlie knowing full well that he won't be able to give a definitive instantaneous response and thus they feel that they can manipulate the result of the deliberation. After all, if they ask immediately in such a situation and it takes sufficient time for their driver to take advantage of the situation then they can moan their way out of trouble. Problem is, the system has got wise to their political games and is hitting them just as it always has everyone else. Bo**ocks to them.
Just_a_fan
 
Joined: 31 Jan 2010

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:21 pm

Any advantage, except one that expressly forbidden in the rules perhaps. Passing off track is not allowed. There is nothing in the rules about being forced off track, then the off track gain of position is OK.

They should know the rules. You can't break one and then ask the stewards if it is ok to break the rule, that won't help anyone.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute
Giblet
 
Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Location: Downtown Canada

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:44 pm

Giblet wrote:Any advantage, except one that expressly forbidden in the rules perhaps. Passing off track is not allowed. There is nothing in the rules about being forced off track, then the off track gain of position is OK.

They should know the rules. You can't break one and then ask the stewards if it is ok to break the rule, that won't help anyone.

Granted, and that is what happened with Alonso. He was forced off the track by Kubica, when he was alongside. So the position that he "gained" was earned and legal. Had kubica given Alonso room of half a cars width, Alonso would stll have been ahead, coming out of the corner>
gilgen
 
Joined: 3 Apr 2010

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:19 pm

gilgen wrote:
andrew wrote:Kubica was defending his position which he is entitled to do. Alonso gained a position by going off the track. Pretty clear cut stuff - penalty was fair.


Kubica certainly was entitled to defend his position, but he forced Alonso onto the green. What did you expect Alonso to do?? Stick to his position on track and have a violent crash?? After all, they were side to side.
It was not a deliberate attempt to cut the corner and gain an advantage, such as Hamilton at Spa.
It also transpires that Whiting told Ferrari that the stewards would look at the matter AFTER the race!

:wtf: It was pretty similar overtake, except for the fact that Hamilton gave back position and still he was penalized. :^o [-X
komninosm
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2009

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:26 pm

ecapox wrote:
Giblet wrote:No need to yell. Remain civil. Wind your neck in. Relax.

I was merely pointing out that they were given advice that would have been smart to follow immediately.

They obviously should have listened to Charlie, but instead they made the wrong move and paid the price.


my previous message has been edited for quality.

They should have let him pass. I agree 100%. I just think the penalty was very harsh. Even more so now that the pit conversations have been posted.

The penalty was not harsh, it was OK, circumstances made it harsh, bad luck. Ferrari should really keep their mouth shut, lately all they do is tarnish F1.

I would also remind people that it has been argued that it is the team's responsibility to take action in cases such as this. Remember Hamilton and Trulli and their incident last year? McLaren kept asking Charlie if they should retake position, but he never replied and now people are complaining about this? Sheesh so much bias... [-X
komninosm
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2009

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:31 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:Did they forget what happened to Hamilton in 2008? In that situation Hamilton returned the place in an identical situation and was still penalised for gaining an advantage.

Having benefitted from such a penalty, Ferrari must have expected the same to apply to their driver. Of course, having had the benefit of preferential treatment for years they still expect it now. At some point they'll figure it out that they need to grow up and stop 'running to sir' at the every opportunity. I'm of the opinion that they ask Charlie knowing full well that he won't be able to give a definitive instantaneous response and thus they feel that they can manipulate the result of the deliberation. After all, if they ask immediately in such a situation and it takes sufficient time for their driver to take advantage of the situation then they can moan their way out of trouble. Problem is, the system has got wise to their political games and is hitting them just as it always has everyone else. Bo**ocks to them.

=D> =D> =D>
I'll add the Truli-Hamilton incident a while back to yours, for people complaining about Charlie not replying "properly". What were they saying back then? :^o [-X
komninosm
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2009

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:42 pm

gilgen wrote:
Giblet wrote:Any advantage, except one that expressly forbidden in the rules perhaps. Passing off track is not allowed. There is nothing in the rules about being forced off track, then the off track gain of position is OK.

They should know the rules. You can't break one and then ask the stewards if it is ok to break the rule, that won't help anyone.

Granted, and that is what happened with Alonso. He was forced off the track by Kubica, when he was alongside. So the position that he "gained" was earned and legal. Had kubica given Alonso room of half a cars width, Alonso would stll have been ahead, coming out of the corner>

I don't think you understand what Giblet is saying here. He's saying there's no rule to say your pass is legal if you get pushed (POV) off-track. Off-track pass means give position back ALWAYS.

:wtf: :^o [-X
Look at the two passes, they're almost the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJXQXYapdxA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FzNZSaKOsQ
You can't say Kubica pushed Alonso off the track any more than Kimi did to Hamilton. And Hamilton gave back the place to Kimi, however briefly (the rules didn't say it was not allowed then, they changed them after the race), but he still got a penalty. :roll:
How can Ferrari/Alonso complain about getting this penalty with a straight face, especially after their previous tiresome tirade about Hamilton passing the SC in the previous race and their "holier than though" acting about rule breaking? [-X :^o

Look, this sort of thing has been happening for ever in racing. People almost always give back the place and complain about the other driver later and get him penalized some times. Ferrari is way off base again. Really bad habit forming up. I guess it's because of all those years before that they got preferential treatment [-X
komninosm
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2009

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:55 pm

What has Belgium 2008 or Hamilton got to do with the British GP 2010?

Hamilton got a penalty - deal with it and move on. It is irrelevant anyway as he was given the trophy at the end of the season.

It's funny when bias is mentioned above 'cos your bias is so plain for all to see you constantly have to make everything about Hamilton even though he is irrelevant to the discussion in hand, namely Alonso's penalty for an illegal pass on Kubica. I would also add that I think the rules have probably changed since 2008 so the 2 incidents are likely not comparible.
andrew
 
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Post Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:16 pm

andrew wrote:What has Belgium 2008 or Hamilton got to do with the British GP 2010?

Hamilton got a penalty - deal with it and move on. It is irrelevant anyway as he was given the trophy at the end of the season.

It's funny when bias is mentioned above 'cos your bias is so plain for all to see you constantly have to make everything about Hamilton even though he is irrelevant to the discussion in hand, namely Alonso's penalty for an illegal pass on Kubica. I would also add that I think the rules have probably changed since 2008 so the 2 incidents are likely not comparible.

What does a precedent have to do with it? You'd not make it through law-school... :^o [-X
BTW the rules on off-track overtaking have not changed, other than they added the "wait one more corner" rule AFTER the Hamilton-Kimi incident (but penalized him pre factum).
I'm done talking to you, you're just spouting antagonistic baseless flame-bait.
komninosm
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2009

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