Korean GP 2010 - Yeongam

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Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:16 pm

I was watching Webber's crash now more than 20 times. My opinion is that he surely didn't hit the brakes. But maybe he was unaware ( at that very moment ) how much damage his car suffered, and tryed to reverse the car to face in normal direction. If you look at the wheels, he tries to steer the car to return to the track. If he steered in opposite direction ( thinking that it's all over ) then he would stay close to the wall, and maybe even he would manage to roll out to the runoff area.
So for me it's Webber's fault, but his intension was not to take out any of his opponents, but to return to the track and recover ( if my theory is right, that he was unaware of true damage of the car).
I give you an opposite view too, because I must consider this too : It's a little bit optimistic view that he wasn't aware of the damage. Experinced drivers like Webber must immediatelly realise that this kind of impact to the wall must be the end of the race....so how knows ?
We have example of Hamilton in Monza, where he also was unaware of the damaged steering link, and he drove until the next corner too..
Maybe it's just too much adrenaline, and even they can't conttol their instincts in these situations completely.

EDIT : Also I must agree with others here, that you can see clearly taht the wheels are blocked by brakes UNTIL contact with the wall, but not after. After the contact you can see rotating wheels ( front wheel rotation you can observe on onboard camera , and rear wheel on TV shots )
Last edited by kalinka on Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Nigel Mansell is the only one you could see in the two mirrors at the same time". Ayrton Senna.
kalinka
 
Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Location: Ada,Serbia

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:17 pm

WhiteBlue wrote:http://f1.automoto365.com/news/f1/webber-could-have-hit-the-brakes-says-berger/GpNewsForm-en-default-21-10-0-42840-1.html?

Gerhard Berger agrees with Nico Rosberg and Marc Surer that Webber did a poor job rolling across the track without braking and collecting Rosberg in the process.

Gerhard Berger wrote:He could have hit the brakes and stopped the car at the wall. He took out Rosberg, but that was the wrong one. I think in his mind he would have preferred it to be Alonso or Hamilton. He goes off and he knows it's over. In this moment you're frustrated and a thousand thoughts go through your head. It's very obvious, you can see his wheels are not locked up. Perhaps he had a brake problem, but I don't think so.


It is a logical explanation that he was expecting to hit Alonso or Hamilton who are both direct competitors for WDC this year. He was lucky that his compatriot Allan Jones was the driver steward and that the stewards did not start an investigation.


Woah! That's a bit of a veiled accusation there! Do you have any data to back this theory up?
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?
forty-two
 
Joined: 1 Mar 2010

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:45 pm

Giblet wrote:I wonder how much earlier vettel's motor would have exploded if he didn't get to leisurely circulate behind the safety car for so long.


Finally, something relevant to discuss!

I wondered actually if the engine failure might actually have been indirectly caused by the long time spent behind the safety car.

Let's speculate a little here, while running behind the safety car, they're using much much less fuel than if they were at full racing speed. That being the case, when the racing got underway it would be in the interests of all drivers to do what they could to try and burn off the excess fuel from different mix settings etc. Brundle mentioned this during the race actually.

Well, if that were the case, say with Vettel, and he was running rich for a long time trying to shed excess fuel weight, could this also have contributed to an engine failure?
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?
forty-two
 
Joined: 1 Mar 2010

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:49 pm

WhiteBlue wrote:http://f1.automoto365.com/news/f1/webber-could-have-hit-the-brakes-says-berger/GpNewsForm-en-default-21-10-0-42840-1.html?

Gerhard Berger agrees with Nico Rosberg and Marc Surer that Webber did a poor job rolling across the track without braking and collecting Rosberg in the process.

Gerhard Berger wrote:He could have hit the brakes and stopped the car at the wall. He took out Rosberg, but that was the wrong one. I think in his mind he would have preferred it to be Alonso or Hamilton. He goes off and he knows it's over. In this moment you're frustrated and a thousand thoughts go through your head. It's very obvious, you can see his wheels are not locked up. Perhaps he had a brake problem, but I don't think so.


It is a logical explanation that he was expecting to hit Alonso or Hamilton who are both direct competitors for WDC this year. He was lucky that his compatriot Allan Jones was the driver steward and that the stewards did not start an investigation.

Erm ... how do I respond to this?

There is a phrase springing to mind :
WhiteBlue wrote:ROFLMAO! Nice theories until official decisions are published.

I think that about sums it up!
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."
gridwalker
 
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Location: Sheffield, UK

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:52 pm

WhiteBlue wrote:...
There is no reason to assume that Vettel did something wrong. He is an experienced race driver who wants to win races. So he drives the car as hard as it is necessary to win races. He took the last laps of the Japanese race slow and left the fastest lap to Webber. He also held back with laps in FP1/2/3 in Korea. All this shows that he manages his engine stress carefully.
...

It is a driver known for setting fastest race laps in the end of races just for the sake of it you are talking about. He took last laps of the Japanese GP slow only after he set the fastest lap again, and Webber retook it on the last lap just to annoy him (and changed the engine afterwards).
Paul
 
Joined: 25 Feb 2009

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:01 pm

forty-two wrote:Let's speculate a little here, while running behind the safety car, they're using much much less fuel than if they were at full racing speed. That being the case, when the racing got underway it would be in the interests of all drivers to do what they could to try and burn off the excess fuel from different mix settings etc. Brundle mentioned this during the race actually.

Indeed he did mention it. And was prompted to do so by Hamilton asking his team what engine setting to use to maximise fuel use behind the safety car so that he didn't carry excess fuel later.
Just_a_fan
 
Joined: 31 Jan 2010

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:16 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
forty-two wrote:Let's speculate a little here, while running behind the safety car, they're using much much less fuel than if they were at full racing speed. That being the case, when the racing got underway it would be in the interests of all drivers to do what they could to try and burn off the excess fuel from different mix settings etc. Brundle mentioned this during the race actually.

Indeed he did mention it. And was prompted to do so by Hamilton asking his team what engine setting to use to maximise fuel use behind the safety car so that he didn't carry excess fuel later.


Exactly, so could it be that the fuel setting and/or driving style employed by Vettel while running on the alternate mix encouraged his engine to give up the ghost?

Or, just bad luck?
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?
forty-two
 
Joined: 1 Mar 2010

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:53 pm

It has come to pass:
Hamilton made no mistakes. ......................
Webber was a fool not to use his brakes. He will make the same mistake again, but this time with another driver.

from the Hamilton is desperate thread. 8)

You see i was expecting a repeat of Singapore, and i wanted to see the reaction from all of you.
Webber does something stupid again but this time he gets the blame. Why not blame rosberg? :lol:

Webber is a maniac. His thinking is no different from Singapore, he will crash into someone if he loses position.
Same exact thing he did to Hamilton in Singapore, we just have to deal with it.
No one supporting his moves in Singapore should be criticizing him now.

I believe he hit rosberg purposely becuase his car should have stuck to the wall. He has 2 braking circuits,front and back, and he has a steering wheel. He should have known to keep the car in the wall instead of dangerously veering back into the track to hit Alonso or Hamilton.
For Sure!!
ringo
 
Joined: 29 Mar 2009

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:03 pm

djos wrote:Watch the Video of the crash again, the left hand side suspension (front and rear) and left rear wheel are all broken by Webbers collision with the wall leaving the tub on a soaking wet surface traveling at a fair speed.

It is simply not possible that the brakes would have any meaningful effect in these circumstances - Rosberg was simply bloody unlucky!

Here is proof Webber did have the brakes locked up after he hit the wall and they did precisely nothing:



You can actually see the right front wheel completely up in the air as he is sliding down the road just before Rosberg collects him at the 31 second mark.


Webber's car should have stuck in the wall and reverse into the grass.

He released the brakes, watch the wheel speed go from zero to moving. And he steered the wheel to go back into the track. His brakes were working fine.

Webber lacks discipline and should be penalized. I just dont want Alonso to win the WDC too easily. If he wins he needs to race for it.
For Sure!!
ringo
 
Joined: 29 Mar 2009

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:15 pm

The way I see Webbers crash is that sure his spin was his own fault but he was just a passanger when he collected Rosberg. If I recall correctly, the track was soaking wet and incredibly slippery. I think the car had collapsed onto the plank under the car so Webber was just a passanger.

Alan Jones being the race steward has nothing to do with it at all. If he was of that mindset the surely he would have upheld Barrichello's gurning about Schumacher (who Jones once called an "arrogant b*****d").

Any conspirocy theories suggesting that Webber deliberatly crashed into Rosberg or could have done anything to steer the car better is just wishful thinking.
andrew
 
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:11 pm

omar2726 wrote:
mr moda wrote:Once again WB you play the nationality card with the stewards. Please stop with your drivel and quoting sensationalist tit pieces from the press. Further more, in regards to your previous post about engine/driver management. You yourself were quite happy to get into the discussion and obviously as you now cannot contribute anything worthwhile you feel it is time that all stop that part of the thread. Once again please desist with your drivel. Thankyou.


That was a bit harsh wasn't it? As far as we are concerned, it's a legit news item, that is worthy of mention because of it's offensive and controversial nature. I don't remember personal opinions being banned anywhere in the forum rules.

Commenting on the subject, I think Rosberg was too emotional, and didn't think of the firestorm that would ignite from his tweets. He must be very angry after the race for him to say that.

Cheers :D

P.S. I am not insinuating that Webber really did not brake, I think the idea was crazy, because I don't think a driver such as Webber would be crazy enough to even think about that.

What did Rosberg tweet?
komninosm
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2009

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:13 pm

komninosm wrote:What did Rosberg tweet?

Sucks!Don't understand why webber didn't hit the brakes.Was crazy(evidently)2 roll back over the track.Now seoul+plane in morn.nice2get home

http://twitter.com/#!/nico_rosberg/status/28597701629
imightbewrong
 
Joined: 7 Aug 2008
Location: Sweden

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:16 pm

djos wrote:Watch the Video of the crash again, the left hand side suspension (front and rear) and left rear wheel are all broken by Webbers collision with the wall leaving the tub on a soaking wet surface traveling at a fair speed.

It is simply not possible that the brakes would have any meaningful effect in these circumstances - Rosberg was simply bloody unlucky!

Here is proof Webber did have the brakes locked up after he hit the wall and they did precisely nothing:



You can actually see the right front wheel completely up in the air as he is sliding down the road just before Rosberg collects him at the 31 second mark.

I don't see any proof there that Webber had the brakes locked up, on the contrary his wheels keep rolling.
His suspension did break though so his floor was sliding on the wet as you say.
His trajectory is kinda weird though. He hits the wall and slides along it for a bit, then his tires gain some traction and pull him to the other side. If he had blocked the tires, probably, this wouldn't have happened, and maybe he would have stayed near the wall. That's the difference of sliding tires and rolling tires. It's hard to say for certain though.
komninosm
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2009

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:22 pm

jamsbong wrote:It was very surprising for me to read the news that Burger accusing Webber for intentionally crashing into Alonso. I read the news from this website:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11010262921 ... tle-rivals

Anyway, after going through a few messages on this forum, I realise there is probably this or that... but nothing conclusive. First of all, the in-car video was not clear whether Webber did or did not brake. The telemetry would be a better way to understand the situation. So I can't see Burger or any of you upholding this claim.

Then again, Vettel was penalised in SPA despite he had no intention to crash into Button. So should Webber be penalised even if he has no intention to cause trouble? I don't think so, but I also disagree with Vettel's penalty.

Overall, Vettel's luck has not been on his side. Just like the bad days of Kimi or Montoya. All these drivers are talented and very fast but somehow some bad stuff would seal their fate.


True, Webber would probably not risk his life like that on purpose.
What you say about Vettel is interesting, probably if they penalized Webber now it would be bad for the championship battle, since Alonso is already in front.

imightbewrong wrote:
komninosm wrote:What did Rosberg tweet?

Sucks!Don't understand why webber didn't hit the brakes.Was crazy(evidently)2 roll back over the track.Now seoul+plane in morn.nice2get home

http://twitter.com/#!/nico_rosberg/status/28597701629

Thanks.
komninosm
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2009

Post Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:34 pm

I agree that Webber didn't brake after impact, and steered the car back on track. There is so much evidence for that, that it's hard to see another way. But I don't believe that he's so fool that he was risking his and another's life there and want to take out somebody. There is a thin line for possible explanation. It's that Webber is just not enough good to take this situation with cool head, and he just can't handle these kind of situation in good way. I agree with Ringo that we can draw a line of events that prooves this. Singapore/Valencia/Korea...etc. He's lucky to drive in RBR and he's not forced too many times to battle in midfield.
But in the back of my head, at the end, it's too suspicious that Webber didn't brake AND didn't steer the right way after impact. For me , it's too strange for such an experienced driver. How knows? We'll never know probably.
"Nigel Mansell is the only one you could see in the two mirrors at the same time". Ayrton Senna.
kalinka
 
Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Location: Ada,Serbia

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