Over and Under or around the sides

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Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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I think mother nature is lazy... she doesnt want to make any unnecesary effort.

A good thought for your project if its combined with watching the form of a water drop when falling
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Gecko
4
Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 20:40

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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I think your last car looks positively excellent, actually :). I really struggle to see anything fundamentally wrong with the design, save for detail work of course. The biggest drag contributions were likely from exposed parts I imagine. I think the car is low enough that most of the airflow was already directed around the car, although at the front there is first a gap and only then a sort of a fence so it is difficult to say. If you manage to get the air around the car rather than underneath it, then the underbody shape of course becomes much less important. I do have to say I like the shape a lot :).

Low ground clearance is really the way to go, but if the rules give a minimum ride height then you must try and make the underbody as smooth as possible, as the air is going to get under that, and it's also likely to get accelerated so it is doubly important that the shape is smooth or the drag will be that much larger.

In your current design, one other idea; you could put e.g. sculpted styrofoam sides onto the car that would have more rounded edges, so that the flow wouldn't separate as easily from the sharp edge, or at least that the separation will be reduced. The air will want to go both over and around the car in any case.

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greenpower dude reloaded
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Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 20:03
Location: Portsmouth, UK
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Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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it was ok in principle but I got a lot of things wrong with it. I think there was a lot of turbulence over the top from various things sticking out of places and then I had the problem of huge pressure changes also over the top.

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I think the top of the wheel arches must have been tearing the air apart which almost could have worked as it was just infront of a MASSIVE cockpit opening.

Also it ran most of the season like this...
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It's a good shape but carried out badly and careful consideration needs to be taken with rear wheel arches and drivers heads. there wasn't much space for air through there.
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greenpower dude reloaded
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Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 20:03
Location: Portsmouth, UK
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Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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OK! so I suppose some of you may be interested to know how we got on.

It all started incredibly well with us flying through scrutineering etc. but rapidly went downhill just as I was briefing the drivers on the new automatic gearbox, it gave up. So i set it to very roughly 1:1 in the hub (infinitely variable)and sent it to join the back of the grid. No quali session = free for all.

We quickly made up some places though and about 45minutes in to it we were sat in 8th position. Out of the top 15national teams (of which there are 400) 15 other corporate teams including Jaguar Land Rover and Prodrive.

Around 1.5hrs into it we started to slow up, this must mean our rough 1:1 geuss was wrong which it was, we were lapping faster than we were geared for in 1:1. so we brought her in and knocked the gears down a bit and sent her back on her way with the second set of batteries.

cut a long story short our final position was 13th out of 32 with some time off track, so although we're a little bit dissapointed we realise the car is capable of a lot more.

Anyway we have a bit of time now until our next race and I think the body could still be better ALL suggestions are welcome and if anyone would like CAD data of the layout pm me and tell me what format you'd like it in and i'll send it over.
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Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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green power dude reloaded. This might give you an idea of for the 'edge fences' Gecko recommends. This is the McLaren M20 CANAM Group 7 car.
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Another idea; to condition airflow over the tail section. I remember the original version of the Ford P3000 coupe designed by Len Bailey used a double deck similar to the double deck diffuser on the rear bodywork to create downforce. Havent seen it since, but rather intriguing idea. Maybe an aero - neutral 4mm ply second deck would control the turbulence comming off the tail section. At the very least it would baffle the competition. :D
Last edited by Carlos on 27 Apr 2009, 22:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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I'm dying for finding a link to some video (hopefully, live! :)).

If I had a CFD simulator, I would help you. Let's hope somebody asks for the drawings and do some testing.

About Carlos's idea, I know that the car with the lowest Cd in the world (Insight?) got a better Cd by making the tail longer.
Ciro

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slimjim8201
12
Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 06:02

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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Ciro, you beat me to it. Got any drawings? I've already mocked up something like what you are building right now.

Since downforce is of no real importance here, the goal is to have the most streamlined shape. Think "nature". Round everything, long tails, no sharp edges, minimize separation zones as best as possible. If your car looks like something you don't find in nature, probably best to keep on shaping it :)

Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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Good idea Ciro, slimjim8201:
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Porsche 908 Longtail - 1967 :?:

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Ford P68 featuring a semi-longtail :?: - IMHO Probably the most beautiful prototype ever built.
Last edited by Carlos on 27 Apr 2009, 22:31, edited 1 time in total.

Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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Belatti wrote:I think mother nature is lazy... she doesnt want to make any unnecesary effort.

A good thought for your project if its combined with watching the form of a water drop when falling
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Take a look at the two lower cases... 0.04 is better than 0.09... a drop of water mate, mother nature is lazy :)

You are blessed by the fact you dont need downforce. You can have a higher ride height and do the water drop shape in the lower part of the car body.

I´m also wondering... if those races are won by the ones who covered to larger distances with a battery... does time matters? You know, less speed means less drag (in all of its forms) and so less power needed.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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Yep, a water drop shape is the best, neutral shaped body and then as flat as possible, make everything as compact as possible, a high ride height so there is no disruption with the road, pump up the tires and you are actually ready to go.

And then if you feel need for some downforc then you can always place a gurney on the tail :p
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

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greenpower dude reloaded
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Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 20:03
Location: Portsmouth, UK
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Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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Wow this has been busy! as have I hence the somewhat delayed response. The plan was to make a more water droplet shaped car but ran out of time and just used the side profile templates to create a relatively good shape.

Those pictures you posted Carlos show some truly beautiful racing cars, such a shame that more pure designs like that are no longer built for racing.
I had desperately been trying to work out which porsche it reminded me of, must have been the 908, weren't there some cars around that time that didn't have a rear wing but little fins at the back.

Anyway thats for another day.

I can knock up some drawings of the current shape in no time, let me know what formats you can accept. Slimjim this could be a HUGE help. I'm struggling to model the shape i'd like to move on to at the moment but can provide as many pictures and drawings to create a model from should anybody fancy a go.

Ciro Videos will be posted later, I've just not had chance yet.

Thanks for all your help guys!!! Belatti, Gecko, Wesleykeep up the good work
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Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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green power dude reloaded. I think this is the version of the 908 you were thinking of:

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The 908 raced in different configurations for almost 3 decades.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_908

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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how did I miss this thread. Your basic design is pretty good the one thing id worry about it side wind performance since you have rather large side frontal area. also check out the newer solar cars

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8218034@N02/2657079213

new ruls make the driver sit up more so you get huge canopies.

but we push the are both directions. while still maintaining array area

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greenpower dude reloaded
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Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 20:03
Location: Portsmouth, UK
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Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqFmhiVkIEA[/youtube]
Video, as per request :P

It was pretty quick but I know the shape still leaves a fair bit to be desired. The ground clearance was expected to be 60mm but the ply sagged causing it to be a fair bit lower, which won't have helped the nose.

So the plan is fibreglass BUT what shape exactly, I'm hoping that tonight i'll get the chance to sit down and do a couple of quick drawings showing the route I was hoping to go down.

Areas in particular that I think will need attention are roll bar/helmet interference. whether or not the crash helmet should be faired. Bentley did some research last year and decided against it, that doesn't always make it right with our design though.

The Cockpit opening needs careful optimisation too, is a small lip a good or bad thing??

Flyn I want to try and work on the side profile, but we're too far along with this chassis now unfortunately to go down the route of the solar car for this season.

Looking on the bright side though we were instantly faster by 40secs a lap :D
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slimjim8201
12
Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 06:02

Re: Over and Under or around the sides

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Got a bit creative...

Those sharp edges are killers in the front. Viewed from the top, the car is literally a brick. Much drag could be reduced by profiling the sides of the car and tapering the rear.

My modified car body has about 55% of the drag of the first! The splitter idea in the front is probably not the best. For minimum drag, the goal is to allow the flow to go where it wants to with minimal interference. The splitter is pretty much useless as it's forcing air that probably wanted to go under the car to go up or around...

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