New member - Bought an RA107

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Tim.Wright
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by Tim.Wright » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:25 pm

Hi Bjorn,

I noticed it looks like the rack is present from the photos. Is it power assisted in any way? If not I'd be a little suspect about using in the car as it might just be a dummy device, as I'm sure all of the cars have power assisted (hydraulic or otherwise) steering.

If the rack is there an ok and you just need a column and wheel, that should be possible with a good race shop. The hardest part could be matching the spline on the honda rack as it might be a little bit trick.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

bettonracing
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by bettonracing » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:27 pm

Wow. Great buy. Even greater price!

To reiterate what somebody hinted at, You may consider contacting Mercedes GP & asking them if they'd be willing to share at least some of the technical specifications with You (body & wing geometry in particular), since the car is not one of their favorites. Some guys have had success with this. Most haven't... Nothing tried, nothing done. Be very strategic when contacting them. Their HR departments are structured to shelter engineers from these calls...

What tyres do You plan on using?

As far as the engine, I personally vote to go with the Hartley**, but You may consider sourcing a used engine from Race-cars.com. The sellers will usually have all the relevant operating info You need/ want to know. You'd be more likely to find a stressed engine. Surprisingly, these engines are sometimes cheaper to purchase, and maintain (assuming You do most of Your own maintenance).

Example: Chevy IRL Engine for $20K.

Of course, if You decided to go with a late model Cosworth V10 I don't think anyone here would complain. :D


Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

**I vote for the Hartley mainly because it's customizable. Use ancilliaries (alternator/ water pump/ gaskets/ ECU/ etc) that are local to You - or better yet, used by other people at Your intended track days! Plus, You can always turbocharge it later if You want more power. Ethanol/ methanol intercooling can save You the hassle of a physical heat exchanger. I'm sure Hartley would support You well. This is his target market.

Formula None
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by Formula None » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:44 pm

I have another idea:

Take off the wings.
4 space saver spares.
Prius drivetrain.
Maintain livery.
Hypermile to 200mpg.
Post on ecomodder.
They ask, "how much more green could it be?" You answer "none, none more green."
Live in infamy.

F1snake
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Location: Bath, UK

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by F1snake » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:00 pm

Thanks again for all your suggestions and ideas, its all a great help to us. We are complete novices when it comes to F1 car ownership, and need all the help we can get. It certainly looks like I've hit on the right forum.

Tim,

The car did indeed have hydraulic power assisted steering, and I think I;ll be able to get hold of the pumps etc for that. The rack itself is in fine working order, just need a column.

Hi Kurt,

I have been onto Mercedes GP more than once, both by phone and letter, but so far no luck. I need a 'friend' in there.....

I agree with you re the Hartley, seems the most sensible way ahead. And as you say, one can always turbo charge later. I'm running a supercharged Viper for hillclimbs/sprints with water/methanol injection instead of intercoolers, and it really works a treat. But,I think I'd be more comfortable with a lower power output to begin with, though!

I'm sorry if I don't address everyone's comments, but I do read and appreciate everything.

Thanks again - Bjorn

mep
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by mep » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:17 pm

Hi,
so you got a F1 car for 37K. Sounds like a pretty good deal so far.

What are you planning to do with the car? Do you plan to drive it yourself or to sell it once it is running?
I would prolly do the later one. I expect a running F1 car can be sold for 1 or 2 millions.

How much money you have left or want to invest into that project? You still need an engine and maybe some other stuff.

How much time you have?

Can you list all the parts you still need?

Getting that steering working shouldn’t be a to big problem. Getting a engine into it I see as bigger problem when you don’t get exactly the engine it was designed for. I expect you want to keep the wheelbase because of the bodywork so the space between gearbox and tube is fixed. As we see on the pictures this space is rather small. The mounting points will probably not fit to the new engine so you need a auxiliary construction to get new mounting points and to get a structural part between tube and transmission. This will also need some space so you easily run into trouble. You either get exactly the engine it was designed for or one with same mounting points or you have to search for a shorter one.

Is the gearbox complete including all internals?

On one picture it looks like brakes are also missing, is that true? Could also be a problem to get own carbon brakes done. Maybe you go to a more conventional brake design and don’t make them so heat sensitive.

At least judging from your garage it seems like this is not your first car so you know what you are doing.


Edit: Typo
Last edited by mep on Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

747heavy
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by 747heavy » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:36 pm

Hi Bjorn,

Congratulations to your purchase !!
Surely you have enough to do now for "long winter evenings" :lol:

As for the engine, just some radom thoughts (it´s not really my area of expertise),
as others pointed out, how about a Zytek V8 which was built and run in A1GP, I think, it would be the closesed you can get to a "modern" V8 F1 engine.

I´m sure Ferrari has taken their engines back (last years A1GP), after A1GP folded, but maybe they would sell one, as they will not have much use for them now.

two other idea´s which come to mind, an older Zytek F3000 engine, there should be plenty out there, reliable and "cheap?".
Or maybe worth to make a call to Cosworth an ask about the engine designed to be used in the Lotus Exos 125 "track car".
But I have no idea, what the price for such a engine would be.
The Exos Type 125 is built on a carbon fibre monocoque chassis and gets a 645bhp 3.5-litre V8 Cosworth engine capable of revving to 10,800rpm in overtake mode
http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/08/09/lotus ... track-car/
For now, I think the gearbox will be the "biggest project" on your list, as you would need a gear cluster which fit´s into the original gearbox casting/housing.

Later, when you come down to the dampers and you have problems, feel free to PM me, I maybe able to help you, or at least get you in contact with some people who may can.
I´m not sure a MC damper will get you, where you want to go.
But compare with anything else, dampers will be your smallest problem.

I agree, that it would be good, to make a drawing or jig from the wishbones, as it is possible/likely :( , that at one point you will break one of them. (don´t hope so, but if you plan to run/race the car, it can/will happen at one point).
It will be a great challenge to reproduce them in titan/carbon fibre, if you have no support from Brawn/MGP, but a good fabricator will be able to produce a steel one with the same dimensions.

If you plan to race the car, this is maybe the better/safer option (steel wishbone/pushrod) to start with.

As the constant checking (NDT) of the carbon parts will be either expensive, or out of reach to do yourself for an amateur (no disrespect), due to lack of equipment and expertise in NDT for composites.

Keep in mind that most/all F1 parts are designed with a very short lifespan in mind.
All parts will normally run to a very strict lifing/milage shedule, and will most likely "break" due to fatique, when "their time is up".

It maybe was cheap to buy such a car, but running it, will be a different matter, as these cars are very service/care intense, and not your standard turn key amateur race/track car, which will run "forever" as long as you put fuel in it.

Good luck on your way & all the best.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

F1snake
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by F1snake » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:51 pm

Hi Mep,

Well, I actually got the car for 37K(73K typo?) so as you say, 'a pretty good deal'.

My girlfriend and I will return it to the track and have fun with this car. Thats why we bought it. If it turns out to be a sound investment, then all the better, but not the main objective.

I think we need to spend around another 40K in parts (we plan to do most of the work ourselves) to get the car running, but its still 'a pretty good deal' It will have to take the time it takes, but the sooner the better!

As mentioned in previous replies, the engine I'd like is the H1V8 or perhaps the Zytec, but I'm not familar with this unit yet.

Transmission is complete, but dont yet know if we can use it.

I do have the brakes, but considering using steel discs, as they're a bit easier to get heat into.

And, yes we do have another few cars, but they are all dinosours compared to the Honda.

Hi 747heavy,

The loooong winter evenings have indeed now been spoken for. In fact they have been for some years now. We're always prepping our cars for the comming season, but this new addition has certainly given us something quite new and different to concentrate on.

I do like 'reliable & cheap', hence the H1V8 thought.(cheap being a relative term!) I'd have loved the sound of a real F1 engine, but it will be pretty unrealistic for us to run one. I was looking into an older V10 F1 engine. They require expensive rebuilds every season, and they are literally on or off, you can't hesitate on the gas pedal or the engine will start 'hunting' (running bad all over the place) and obviously unsettle the car.

Regarding dampers, I'd welcome your advise. I think it ran Showa's originally, but impossible to find those. I do have access to to a good stash of suspension parts like wishbones, steering arms etc, that I'm planning to stock up on. We are lucky that no-one else are running the Honda's. That keeps the price down on the parts. As mentioned earlier, I can buy wishbones for £40. The equivilant Jaguar wishbones are sold for £1000 as they are still running those cars. We did think about having steel wishbones etc, but that could cost up to 5K to produce, and I can buy an awful lot of carbon parts for that.

Having raced for a few years now, we are aware of the cost involved, and we know its going to be quite a task with the Honda, but then again, we're not planning to use the car as intensely as F1 teams do, so hopefully it will hold up, and we can have some fun with it.

Thanks again for your good advise and help

Cheers - Bjorn

ESPImperium
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by ESPImperium » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:12 pm

Heres the origional spec sheet of the car: http://world.honda.com/Formula-1/chassi ... index.html

As for damplers, you could put Ohlins hillclimb or AutoGP dampers in there.

Im sure that you can get dampers that will work.

Another thing that may be worth doing is taking out a subscription in RaceCar Engineering magazine, or getting in touch with them as they could use the car for wind tunnel experiements, and give you contacts on the way.

timbo
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by timbo » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:15 pm

ESPImperium wrote:Another thing that may be worth doing is taking out a subscription in RaceCar Engineering magazine, or getting in touch with them as they could use the car for wind tunnel experiements, and give you contacts on the way.
I'm sure they would want to!
Although, maybe that sort of thing would be illegal?

ESPImperium
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by ESPImperium » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:24 pm

timbo wrote:
ESPImperium wrote:Another thing that may be worth doing is taking out a subscription in RaceCar Engineering magazine, or getting in touch with them as they could use the car for wind tunnel experiements, and give you contacts on the way.
I'm sure they would want to!
Although, maybe that sort of thing would be illegal?
Im not sure... But you may be right... Thing is im not sure on the legal side of things here.

747heavy
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by 747heavy » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:50 pm

just another thought in regards of a possible engine.

How about this:

Image
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... ngine.html

At least is a Honda :wink:
maybe they are interested and willing to help with a "friendship" deal/price

As for the rest:
IMHO - it would be a good idea, to buy as many of the suspension parts as possible.
For £40 you cant make anything, and they will fetch more on ebay, if you don´t need/want them later on.
Also worth thinking about small stuff like wheel bearings/seals etc., as they are most likely no standard size parts, and can get very expensive if you need a replacement.

As for the dampers,
I know Showa was mentioned,but I´m not sure if they are actually made by Showa (worth to give them a call, because nobody will want/need something like this) or
as some F1 teams built their own dampers, built by Honda with Showa internals, or just "branded" Showa, as they (Showa) may paid only some money for the naming rights. This is not a uncommon practice in F1.

Dynamic Suspensions (Multimatics) in Thetford (DaveW) will be able to built dampers to fit for you application, and assist with some setup suggestions.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

flynfrog
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by flynfrog » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:19 am

showa is who does all of the honda MX bikes forks and shocks...


for torsion bars check with the sprint car guys in the US
they run torsion bar suspensions http://www.world-sprintcar-guide.com/sp ... assis.html my guess is your bars will have to be custom made


are you storing that thing outside under a tarp :shock:

bhall
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by bhall » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:55 am

Hey, here's your car.

Image

Image

Best of luck with your project.

F1snake
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by F1snake » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:26 pm

Interesting idea re windtunnel....I've just taken out subscibtion on the RaceCar Engineering mag, I remember it to be pretty good.....I'm not sure it would be illegal for me to let them experiment a bit in the windtunnel. The car was sold with no strings attached from Honda/Brawn, so I don't see how anyone could stop me....?

Thats a very nice engine, 747Heavy, and a Honda aswelll. I like the thought of a V8 in there, though, but I'll keep an open mind on everything at the moment.

I have already been shopping with the parts guy, and I'm rather skinned as as result, but I've managed to secure a bunch of nice spares, incl front and rear wings, set of correct wheels and more. Trouble is there's crate upon crate of unsorted parts, which will take days to get through, so I am likely to find plenty more spares for the car in due course.

Thanks for the tip on Dynamic Suspensions, I'll sure give them a call.


Hi Flynfrog


No, the car doesen't live outside,it is safely locked up in a garage. Thanks for the link re torsion bars. Will come in very handy.

Thank you, bhallg2k for posting those lovely pics, I haven't seen those before. Did you take them yourself?

Cheers - Bjorn

lotus7
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Re: New member - Bought an RA107

Post by lotus7 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:45 pm

Congrats with the purchase !!

Why not try and contact Alistair Gibson ? He should know enough about this car . Last time I spoke to him , he was retired , unemployed and concentrating on sculptures using exotic materials



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