Mclaren Honda 2015

[ojlopez]

So much pain watching McLaren's performance. I have always been a McLaren fan and I intend to continue being one, but I don't see too much progress. True, both cars are finishing races but are only competing against Mehri and Stevens. So I don't think that they are going to win any races this or next year. ERS is more like KERS, good for only a couple of seconds.

[diffuser]

Interesting that both McLaren's best sector 2 times are ahead of both Ferrari's.

'


It's misleading cause it was done on Fresh tires late in the race (car was light on Fuel).

[Jef Patat]

Even on the short burst down to Pouhon Kimi waltzed past Button, and he stormed past Alonso with such ease you'd have sworn Alonso had decided to hit the breaks and put it in reverse

Indeed. The McLarens shoot away like arrows, but then sit around like ducks to be hit. Just look at the ease with which Verstappen passes them:

[PlatinumZealot]

The PR People writing these Texts must have been insanely bored. Or it was Ron Dennis himself.

Hit the nail on the head. That is Ron speak as obediently read by eric boullier.

[Andres125sx]

Interesting that both McLaren's best sector 2 times are ahead of both Ferrari's.

'


It's misleading cause it was done on Fresh tires late in the race (car was light on Fuel).

Actually, it was McH fresh and soft vs Ferrari´s old and medium (in final stint, when fuel load is lowest)

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/08/24/w ... re-mix-up/

[ChrisF1]

If there is one upside for Ron Dennis right now, I guess it is that at least his decision to push Honda's entry forward to 2015 has had a personal financial gain in that Mclaren are now worth less than he would have needed to pay a year ago for the remaining shares he wants to buy for full control.

[Thunder]

https://twitter.com/HondaRacingF1/statu ... 5645995009 I think that shows even Honda expected more from the PU Update.

[dren]

It literally looks like they went backwards with the PU. The PU isn't anywhere near the Renault PU even with the updates.

[diffuser]

Interesting that both McLaren's best sector 2 times are ahead of both Ferrari's.

'


It's misleading cause it was done on Fresh tires late in the race (car was light on Fuel).

Actually, it was McH fresh and soft vs Ferrari´s old and medium (in final stint, when fuel load is lowest)

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/08/24/w ... re-mix-up/

Ironically it shows us what they could do with more downforce and the same amount of drag!!

[Moose]

That start actually says to me that Arai's comments about the engine being good but the chassis sucking might be on the money.

The car is *gone* off the start, and further, it's disappearing down the hill towards eau rouge. The place where it goes wrong is as soon as they need downforce in the high speed turn.

The reason they got overtaken like sitting ducks on the straight was nothing to do with the engine not being powerful, it was to do with their corner exit speed at radillion being very low compared to the rest of the cars around them.

The second overtake at Blanchimont was again due to downforce. Verstappen wasn't gaining on him down the mostly straight part - it was only through the slightly tighter part towards the bus stop that suddenly the McLaren oversteered, and got passed.

You could make an argument that they might be running less downforce than necessary to offset the engine's weaknesses, but I don't think that's true. The car appears to be more than capable of accelerating and driving in a straight line at a decent clip. It just apparently can't take a high speed corner.

[alexx_88]

I think things can be explained a lot easier. I also don't believe the PU is even near Mercedes or Ferrari in terms of overall performance. Fact is that Mclaren performed best on 'twisty' circuits and sectors, not on fast circuits.

Their problem can be explained much easier and, for that, we need to look past the PR talk. If you take it word by word, they haven't really lied, but what the general public understands is completely different. Let me explain.

Firstly, let's take Arai's press releases before Spa. He said they already have an engine more powerful than the Renault and they want to get closer to Ferrari through this upgrade. Fact is that in terms of peak power, all engines are probably quite close. You have a turbo ICE which is flow limited, so all manufacturers will get very similar outputs and a fixed 160Hp output from the MGU-K. That's it! In terms of top values, they are all probably easily within 50Hp, if not less.

No, the key here is sustainability. At Spa, the Mclarens lost all electrical energy after 1/2 a lap, having to spend the other half recharging the batteries. On the other hand, you have Mercedes and Ferrari which are able to use the MGU-H to harvest exhaust energy and use that to recharge the batteries and power the MGU-K on the long straights. With simplistic calculations (2MJ/lap MGU-K harvesting limit with 120KW delivery limit), you get only 17s of MGU-K full power delivery each lap. Rest of the lap is then spent being 160HP down. That's why Honda's pains are way bigger on power circuits like Spa and Monza where a lot of time is spent at full-throttle.

I have faith though. If their only major design flaw is now that they are not able to harvest enough from the MGU-H, that's easily rectifiable over winter, as Ferrari have shown last year. However, corporate mentality seems to be different in the two companies and this might be Honda's pitfall.

Whereas Ferrari realized the design flaw last year and by this time in 2014 they had already employed highly experienced hybrid engineers, Honda are taking the DIY route by trying to solve everything themselves, with no help from the outside. This is not necessarily bad if they are thinking of becoming a university or a training center for their engineers. Very bad idea otherwise. Having not designed a modern KERS system ever, having a year down on the other manufacturers, having a smaller budget, having no meaningful hybrid turbo experience and in a formula where upgrades are heavily regulated. Time will tell obviously, but I'm afraid their pride in not taking in outside help might destroy this partnership and Mclaren with it.

[Sixbarboost]

I remember when Honda returned in the 80s. They started off sensibly with a junior team, Stefan Johansson driving six races in 1983 with the Spirit 201, before Keke Rosberg and Jaques Lafitte had the engine in the Williams FW09 for the last race of the season.



Such a shame you cannot do it like that today, I believe things would have been a bit different?

[max_speed]

I think things can be explained a lot easier. I also don't believe the PU is even near Mercedes or Ferrari in terms of overall performance. Fact is that Mclaren performed best on 'twisty' circuits and sectors, not on fast circuits.

Their problem can be explained much easier and, for that, we need to look past the PR talk. If you take it word by word, they haven't really lied, but what the general public understands is completely different. Let me explain.

Firstly, let's take Arai's press releases before Spa. He said they already have an engine more powerful than the Renault and they want to get closer to Ferrari through this upgrade. Fact is that in terms of peak power, all engines are probably quite close. You have a turbo ICE which is flow limited, so all manufacturers will get very similar outputs and a fixed 160Hp output from the MGU-K. That's it! In terms of top values, they are all probably easily within 50Hp, if not less.

No, the key here is sustainability. At Spa, the Mclarens lost all electrical energy after 1/2 a lap, having to spend the other half recharging the batteries. On the other hand, you have Mercedes and Ferrari which are able to use the MGU-H to harvest exhaust energy and use that to recharge the batteries and power the MGU-K on the long straights. With simplistic calculations (2MJ/lap MGU-K harvesting limit with 120KW delivery limit), you get only 17s of MGU-K full power delivery each lap. Rest of the lap is then spent being 160HP down. That's why Honda's pains are way bigger on power circuits like Spa and Monza where a lot of time is spent at full-throttle.

I have faith though. If their only major design flaw is now that they are not able to harvest enough from the MGU-H, that's easily rectifiable over winter, as Ferrari have shown last year. However, corporate mentality seems to be different in the two companies and this might be Honda's pitfall.

Whereas Ferrari realized the design flaw last year and by this time in 2014 they had already employed highly experienced hybrid engineers, Honda are taking the DIY route by trying to solve everything themselves, with no help from the outside. This is not necessarily bad if they are thinking of becoming a university or a training center for their engineers. Very bad idea otherwise. Having not designed a modern KERS system ever, having a year down on the other manufacturers, having a smaller budget, having no meaningful hybrid turbo experience and in a formula where upgrades are heavily regulated. Time will tell obviously, but I'm afraid their pride in not taking in outside help might destroy this partnership and Mclaren with it.

couldn't agree more.. i feel the same. one point to add , unlike ferrari they do not think software is at fault and looks like issue is related to potentially flawed design. ferrari did complain about software issues in efficiently harnessing/deploying the energy.i think they do not have solution is sight hence spending remaining tokens on ICE and ancillary improvement.Eric did say fixing MGUH will cost way more tokens , i think its an excuse because in honda, research is still going on.

[Thunder]

Honda seems to know what went wrong with the MGU-H and knows how to fix it if i interpred EB right:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns31715.html

[diffuser]

With Ferrari the issue was the turbine was too small. Too much of the exhaust went out the waste gate and there wasn't enough umph to spin both the MGU-H and the compressor. So they had to dial back the harvesting of the MGU-H. I think they had that figured out in June of 2014 but couldn't do anything about it. That being said it probably wasn't that simple! Nothing ever is. This isn't the issue with Honda cause they have the Tokens to redesign the turbine. Unless there are other issues with it's placement. That means other tokens must be used to put it where it needs to be or make space for it.