Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Phil
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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bhall II wrote:
Phil wrote:I do see RedBull as the 'creative mind' here, because they are the ones that built the car with the clear purpose of increasing aerodynamic efficiency...
Remember, Renault was also team at this point, and they had the same idea. They just did it differently...
Fair enough. As I said though, it doesn't matter to me who ultimately came up with the idea for EBD. Full marks to them, irregardless if it's Renault or Redbull. Or both. I think RedBull had its fair share of contribution that made it what it is (perhaps I am mislead by the genius Newey is always made out to be), perhaps Renault (the Enstone race team and at the time works-team) picked up on that and attempted a similar, albeit, as you point out, with different results? I mean, it's F1 - it's only logical that teams pick up on each others works and try to copy each other. There are many roads that lead to Rome... some are just inherently quicker than others.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Phil
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:I've looked.
Horner: Red Bull Racing now the 'factory' Renault team
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/173061/1/r ... orner.html

Red Bull become the ‘factory’ team for Renault.
http://formulaspy.com/formula-1/formula ... nship-5390

Red Bull now Renault's works team - Horner
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-re ... am-horner/

And also tellingly...
WHY RED BULL AND RENAULT ARE GETTING CLOSER
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/09/w ... ng-closer/
Perhaps we need to define the word works-team a bit more carefully then (and yes, I know I've been throwing the term around, perhaps a bit too easily).

Does the works-team (in the context of RedBull and Renault) include...

- a collaboration on a technical level? If yes, to what degree?
- or is it a collaboration primarily based on sponsorship and branding? Perhaps even financially?
- a collaboration to the extend that we can expect a car to be developed by both parties together?

Lastly, how different is this collaboration in context to say, the Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team?

Reading some of your links, this distinction isn't all that well established. On one hand, there are references that point to especially a collaboration on a sponsorship and branding level; E.g. Renault wanting out as their own full team (Enstone) and moving it more to a lighter type investment where they can concentrate on being an engine supplier without having to run their own team with the associated draw-backs (like NOT winning, or having to carry the full investment). Being your own team is great when you're winning - if you're not, it's a major pain, as Toyota, BMW and others have already found out the hard way. Especially in light of economic changes. For Ferrari it's great, because their marque is built on heritage and its participation/association of F1, even if they fall short of winning now and then. Mercedes it's working too, because they are currently dominating. For others, it's been a mixed bag lately, even for Renault who was in huge criticism after 2009. Doing a 'works-team' deal is great, especially when you are backing the current WDC and WCC team. You get lots of branding, free sponsorship if you will at a bargain price (compared to running your own team). Of course, the above links also point to a collaboration on a technical level. In one of your links it says:

"It guarantees stability, it makes us the premier, factory team of Renault Sport, so our colleagues where the engines are produced will be working hand in hand with the engineers and designers at Red Bull"

That was in 2011 mind you, when I suppose that type of development was rather limited to certain aspects of the engines because of the engine freeze. In regards to 2014 and the V6, well, who knows to what degree that collaboration was exploited and to which extend the two teams worked closely together. Despite whatever the PR machine will have you believe on how grande that deal is that Redbull and Renault struck together in 2011, my hunch is that Mercedes (and Ferrari) have had a better structure to benefit of these new engine regulation changes, because they are of one of the same company. Renault and Redbulls partnership as gone sour and I'm not sure if that had already started in 2013 or only as the new V6s came into production. Maybe because the two companies had different ideas on how to approach 2014?

As of 2014, the PU has the potential to influence the design of the car. I think the McLaren shows this very nicely: Honda and McLaren opted for a design that offers some inherent advantages, but also disadvantages. From what I understand, the engine and its alignment of turbine, ERS, but also the way the cooling needs to be placed results in a rather vertical design, meaning that the car's rear as a result is very very slim, offering the potential to get more airflow to the rear wing. The inherent disadvantage of that design is that there is probably a higher CoG the team needs to tackle. If this design proves to be an ace or just an alternative design with potential that can't be fully exploited, well, we'll find that out in the next coming weeks I suppose. The point is rather to highlight to what degree the PU influences the package around it. The danger is also that such a design can't be changed over night (and to some degree is limited by the token system in place). I guess they owe it to themselves to figure out how well it works, when it works - or to abandon it completely in search for a better solution. In regards to Renault and RedBull - one or the other, or both, settled on a different design, that hasn't really worked out either. As I said, it's easy to point at one or the other for blame, but RedBull can't second guess Renaults 'expertise' because they are not an engine manufacturer. Neither can McLaren in regards to Honda - trust is key and a lot fails and succeeds with the competence of your partner to look at all the promising different approaches and figure which one is best. When I look at Renault though, and them officially looking around at buying a team (or leaving the sport), I can't help but think that something in their partnership with RedBull went seriously wrong. And I don't think it went wrong because of the public mudslinging - I see the public mudslinging as the effect of a much deeper cause that may have been going on behind the curtains for a while now...

I'm not one to put the blame to Renault for that partnership not working out. My posts have always been about legitimizing some of the criticism of Mateschitz and Horner towards F1 as a sport and the direction it's taking, and partly about understanding the frustration directed at Renault - which I think has more to do with it not working, reliability issues etc, than outright lack of performance. Or perhaps it is working (in 2014), but the power just isn't there and RedBull is finding themselves in a position where nothing they do, will actually change anything about their performance because it's entirely up to Renault to solve what needs to be solved first. Perhaps easier said then done, when you're 'partner' is out looking for other teams to purchase or to leave the sport... If we look at McLaren and Honda, we see a partnership that despite a lot of issues is still functional, because one trusts the other and they are both trying to solve issues. At least on the outside. Easy to say though - their partnership is still fresh and at the beginning of a loooong road.

And hey, this may be the RedBull topic, but I think some of the criticism from Mateschitz/Horner directed at F1 as a sport (and the whole danger of having an engine dictated formula) is just as relevant for all the customer teams too.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Phil,

I won't quote line for line....but I get the gist of your post. To surmise, you are saying Renault and Red Bull are not as collaborative as Mercedes or Ferrari with their respective engine departments. And I agree, but why is this an issue for F1 or the manufacturer teams if Red Bull and Renault will not collaborate to the extent Merc/Ferrari do?

It seems to suggest a structural advantage for both Mercedes and Ferrari. Yet Red Bull and Renault have the choice to follow suit, but choose not to.

And it's also poignant to remind readers here, that Red Bull themselves had a massive structural advantage of their own from 2009 through to 2013. Red Bull Technologies and it's operations were free from constraints that all other teams had signed up to. The other competitors had a choice to spend 100s of millions to emulate it, or languish.
Ferrari and Mercedes did so, with McLaren caught out due to their cash strapped situation(or less flush than the Mercedes days). You don't even need to look at this year, check McLaren's gradual decline from 2010 onwards.

F1 is not a level playing field, it never has been. It's a game of interpretation and manipulation. Red Bull mastered it for 4 years and now they are subject to a law Ben put beautifully(edited for context).
bhall II wrote:that which has the power to completely facilitate also has the power to completely debilitate.
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lio007
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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So RB without Renault-PU's after 2016?

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12473/ ... ying-lotus
Cyril Abiteboul wrote:... and handle the separation in a clever manner.

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Schuttelberg
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It's a good thing for Lotus. As far as I'm concerned the Enstone team always echoed Benetton/Renault. Also, I didn't like how RBR kept belittling Renault in public.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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ME4ME
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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But we will still need partner teams and in my opinion there is still a fantastic fit, including in terms of brand and values, between Red Bull and Renault.
Very much possible the RBR-Renault partnership can continue after 2016. Renault needs to supply more then their own team with engines for it to make economical sense, and Red Bull needs engines. If Renault deliver a decent step at the end of this year, and another step in 2016, the relationship between the two companies might turn for the better.

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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/33674638

Not so sure there's much life left in Red Bull Renault after reading this.
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wickedz50
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/33674638

Not so sure there's much life left in Red Bull Renault after reading this.
I see this as a better way to go forward. Let Redbull partner Merc and that will be more interesting. A merc engine on a Newey design ... phew!!! race on... =D>

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ME4ME
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/33674638

Not so sure there's much life left in Red Bull Renault after reading this.
That article is mostly based on old quotes from earlier this year. Since then the public fight between the companies has turned much more quite.

Regarding Renault buying Lotus; maybe this could turn out to be an opportunity for Red Bull to take over Lotus' current Mercedes PU contract.

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Phil
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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from the above article:
bbc wrote: The message from Abiteboul is clear: You owe us a bit more respect than you are showing us after what we helped you achieve.

He also says Red Bull should take note of Renault's history and standing.
How convenient.... Renault is just an engine manufacturer at this point. If things don't work, easy to blame the teams for not delivering a good car. If a team is unsuccessful, they still get to sell their product due to contracts, of which they have more than one. Only problem is; Renault is in the critics and not in a good way with their PU and one of their customers ain't happy. The other customer [Torro Rosso] doesn't have much to say, they're just happy enough to be puddling around the midfield where they've been for the past couple of years.

Of course, Abiteboul would be a fool to concede too much responsibility on the PU part. Wouldn't be good for their business or image either.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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djos
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/33674638

Not so sure there's much life left in Red Bull Renault after reading this.
Renault need to stop whining about RedBull needing to show them more respect, if Honda have proven anything it's that you are only as good as your last engine!
"In downforce we trust"

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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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djos wrote:
FoxHound wrote:http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/33674638

Not so sure there's much life left in Red Bull Renault after reading this.
Renault need to stop whining about RedBull needing to show them more respect, if Honda have proven anything it's that you are only as good as your last engine!
Are you working on the assumption that Red Bull still have "the best chassis and aero"?
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djos
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No, merely that they are at the very least a close second to Mercedes
"In downforce we trust"

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FW17
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whatever the outcome of this it is Renaults fault for the poor performance of the engines and doing nothing to improve the situation.

They were not even enthusiastic about the lifting of the development freeze and token system last year when RedBull were all out campaigning for the same, Renault through the wet blanket on the proposal siting cost.

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Phil
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:Are you working on the assumption that Red Bull still have "the best chassis and aero"?
Again Fox, how can one judge the ability of the chassis and aero when the car is clearly compromised because of the PU?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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