2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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FoxHound
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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bhall II wrote:- The Hungaroring, with its slow, sweeping corners, is also a circuit that rewards driveability. (This aspect of the comparison is almost a chicken-egg thing.)
And driveability is not solely linked to the engine alone. Chassis and aero play a role here, as does the engine map which is more or less the silver bullet, as these cars have low down torque in spades.
bhall II wrote:- It doesn't matter what generates the downforce. Any drag-reduction measure that relies on reduced ride height for activation will defeat itself upon activation.
Further, if RB12 has the sort of floor efficiency that could affect such a change without the rear wing, then it wouldn't a need a rear wing at all.

What made Red Bull's flexible front wings work is that they were anisotropic, meaning they were activated by neither downforce nor drag force independently of the other. They required the influence of both, and I don't know how you do that with an entire chassis.

- Unless the rear wing is somehow rotated forward against the force of drag, rotation will reduce AoA. That means its highly unlikely the wing will stall, because the rotation will minimize the impact of the adverse pressure gradient that causes wings to stall.

(Seriously, whoever wrote that bit for motorsport.con really --- the bed.).
I won't get involved in second guessing who is correct, I'm learning as I go.

But it makes sense to me that if there is higher AoA or greater surface area, there will be an accompanying drag penalty.
As to when and how this penalty is shed though, is debatable. But first, the wing needs to be overloaded = drag.

Given that a wing "switches off"after it's overloaded, will this effect take place in cars sans rake? Or is rake the raison d'etre?
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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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HAMILTON TO TAKE ENGINE PENALTY AT MONZA
The Mercedes team has decided that Lewis Hamilton will slide down the grid at Monza.

The reigning world champion extended his lead in the 2016 standings recently, but insisted he still doesn’t feel like the true leader because he is running short on engines.

“It’s still not enough because I’m not a race win ahead yet,” he said. “I hope I’ll be able to get a race win ahead and then I’ll feel like I am ahead.”

He will get the chance to do just that at Spa this weekend, before taking a fresh Mercedes engine and a subsequent grid penalty at Monza a week later, according to Sportbox.

“Why Monza? Because we want to minimise the impact of the penalty and it’s easier to overtake there,” said team boss Toto Wolff.

Jolle
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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GPR-A wrote:HAMILTON TO TAKE ENGINE PENALTY AT MONZA
The Mercedes team has decided that Lewis Hamilton will slide down the grid at Monza.

The reigning world champion extended his lead in the 2016 standings recently, but insisted he still doesn’t feel like the true leader because he is running short on engines.

“It’s still not enough because I’m not a race win ahead yet,” he said. “I hope I’ll be able to get a race win ahead and then I’ll feel like I am ahead.”

He will get the chance to do just that at Spa this weekend, before taking a fresh Mercedes engine and a subsequent grid penalty at Monza a week later, according to Sportbox.

“Why Monza? Because we want to minimise the impact of the penalty and it’s easier to overtake there,” said team boss Toto Wolff.
If this is true (what looks like it) it's also an indication that Hamilton doesn't want a good second half season start for Rosberg. But wants to show "who is boss" before his penalty.

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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Makes sense. Low drag setup at Monza and it's easier to overtake than at Spa.

Any indication yet whether they're going to take multiple penalties and start from pit lane to bring Lewis' allocation in line with Nico's? Set a purposefully slow time in Q1 and save tyres too and could still have a good race!!
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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It's debatable which track has an overall net positive result with overtaking. I personally believe that Spa gives easier overtaking, but the drawback is that you have less laps to do it.
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Sonador
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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adrianjordan wrote:Makes sense. Low drag setup at Monza and it's easier to overtake than at Spa.
Not sure on that one, i remember that Lewis was not impressed by Schumacher in a Mercedes .... :mrgreen:

I think Spa would be easier, the amount of laps are less.
But the laps are long, and many oppertunities to overtake, maybe a safetycar.

Also remmember what Shumi did in 2011 i tought (correct me if i am wrong)
He finished fifth starting from the back in a slow Merc ...

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De Jokke
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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Now it's spa?
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... m-mercedes

Please not both gp's...

ps: if Hamilton poles, will he lose his pole position due to the penalties or can he keep pole statistically but starting backwards?
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Pierce89
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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FoxHound wrote:
bhall II wrote:- The Hungaroring, with its slow, sweeping corners, is also a circuit that rewards driveability. (This aspect of the comparison is almost a chicken-egg thing.)
And driveability is not solely linked to the engine alone. Chassis and aero play a role here, as does the engine map which is more or less the silver bullet, as these cars have low down torque in spades.
bhall II wrote:- It doesn't matter what generates the downforce. Any drag-reduction measure that relies on reduced ride height for activation will defeat itself upon activation.
Further, if RB12 has the sort of floor efficiency that could affect such a change without the rear wing, then it wouldn't a need a rear wing at all.

What made Red Bull's flexible front wings work is that they were anisotropic, meaning they were activated by neither downforce nor drag force independently of the other. They required the influence of both, and I don't know how you do that with an entire chassis.

- Unless the rear wing is somehow rotated forward against the force of drag, rotation will reduce AoA. That means its highly unlikely the wing will stall, because the rotation will minimize the impact of the adverse pressure gradient that causes wings to stall.

(Seriously, whoever wrote that bit for motorsport.con really --- the bed.).
I won't get involved in second guessing who is correct, I'm learning as I go.

But it makes sense to me that if there is higher AoA or greater surface area, there will be an accompanying drag penalty.
As to when and how this penalty is shed though, is debatable. But first, the wing needs to be overloaded = drag.

Given that a wing "switches off"after it's overloaded, will this effect take place in cars sans rake? Or is rake the raison d'etre?
What do you mean by overloading a wing? Never heard of that
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adrianjordan
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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De Jokke wrote:Now it's spa?
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... m-mercedes

Please not both gp's...

ps: if Hamilton poles, will he lose his pole position due to the penalties or can he keep pole statistically but starting backwards?
They wouldn't do both. I read this as them wanting to take it at Monza, but they might have to take it at Spa instead depending on what their tests show up.
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FoxHound
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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Pierce89 wrote:What do you mean by overloading a wing? Never heard of that

The point at which the wing stalls.

Image
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bhall II
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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The rub comes from being able to find a speed threshold whereby you’re effectively switching off the rear wing. This happens when the car's rake is reduced: as the load builds with speed, the car is forced toward the ground, which in-turn rotates the wing and overloads it, stalling flow, both reducing downforce and drag.
Image
"...rake is reduced..."

Image
"...which in-turn rotates the wing and overloads it, stalling flow, both reducing downforce and drag."

:wtf:

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FoxHound
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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Well..... Lift is Downforce inverted?
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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FoxHound wrote:Well..... Lift is Downforce inverted?
Yes, but making a wing produce less lift/downforce by reducing its angle of attack doesn't stall it (or "overload" it - stupid term that appears to have been made up by a pseudo-journo with pseudo-knowledge).
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FoxHound
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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Just_a_fan wrote:
FoxHound wrote:Well..... Lift is Downforce inverted?
Yes, but making a wing produce less lift/downforce by reducing its angle of attack doesn't stall it (or "overload" it - stupid term that appears to have been made up by a pseudo-journo with pseudo-knowledge).
The graph is what I'm alluding to, and the effect. I don't care for who's calling what, as it was probably used to dumb it down for a wider audience.

As for the graph.....It shows as Drag increases, there is a point that is reached whereby there will be a drop off in drag due to the boundary layer build up.
As an object moves through the air, air molecules stick to the surface. This creates a layer of air near the surface called a boundary layer which, in effect, changes the shape of the object. The flow reacts to the edge of the boundary layer just as it would to the physical surface of the object. To make things more confusing, the boundary layer may lift off or "separate" from the body and create an effective shape much different from the physical shape. When the boundary layer separates, the wing is said to be stalled and both drag and lift become unsteady. Determining the drag is very difficult under stalled conditions.
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/inclind.html

And to Ben,

Would you say this effect is more pronounced with raked cars?
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SameSame
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Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes

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FoxHound wrote:
The flow reacts to the edge of the boundary layer just as it would to the physical surface of the object.
That's not true. The flow still moves through the boundary layer, it just does so with a certain velocity profile (in the case of a turbulent boundary layer a time averaged profile can be used). Its the displacement thickness that is a measure of how much the flow deflects due to the presence of the boundary layer. Both boundary layer thickness and displacement/momentum thickness are a function of Reynolds number.

The no slip condition is only valid right on the surface of the object the flow is moving over.

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