This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
ME4ME wrote:
Personally, I don't buy that. Especially this year. There is no base-line for any driver to comment on.
Every team has tendencies, and those tendencies show through regardless of what the rules currently are, for example.
FI - always seems to be good on tires
RBR - High down-force
Williams - Low down-force & low drag
How is that relevant? What is your point?
WaikeCU wrote:No, Lewis hasn't, but I think he has perhaps been in touch with engineers in towards developing the 2018 car. I think Lewis perhaps already had some glimpses, ideas, feedback of engineers regarding what to expect of the car in 2018.
I guess you mean 2017. Even if the team has shown the concept of the car to Hamilton at an early state, they can give the same information to Bottas before pre-season testing. Untill they drive the car, the drivers won't know how it behaves. Sure, there is simulation but it doesn't deliver the whole truth and even then, Bottas has time to practise in the sim himself.
Hamilton did have problems with the brakes that's true. But it was a special case like kimi with the steering rack and Button with grip. That's their weapon. They can't be 100% without those things working.
The good thing for Mercedes is that for the brakes, Bottas' preference should blend somewhere bewtween Hamilton and Rosberg. Hamilton is an agressive brake heater so his brake materials are generally harder to heat but once they are heated up they are hard to cool down. Rosberg is more normal on that scale. He needs a moderate heating material.
I don't expect Bottas to have any issues with the steering andI haven't heard him complain avout balance or grip much at all. He is pretty "tough" much like Rosberg. He has a very wide operating window. He will be fine.
PlatinumZealot wrote:Hamilton did have problems with the brakes that's true. But it was a special case like kimi with the steering rack and Button with grip. That's their weapon. They can't be 100% without those things working.
The good thing for Mercedes is that for the brakes, Bottas' preference should blend somewhere bewtween Hamilton and Rosberg. Hamilton is an agressive brake heater so his brake materials are generally harder to heat but once they are heated up they are hard to cool down. Rosberg is more normal on that scale. He needs a moderate heating material.
I don't expect Bottas to have any issues with the steering andI haven't heard him complain avout balance or grip much at all. He is pretty "tough" much like Rosberg. He has a very wide operating window. He will be fine.
I wonder if Merc have similar approach like Mclaren used to do. I remember Mclaren used different brakes and different brake manufacturers to customize the cars for their drivers with Akebono and Brembo brakes. Button is the smooth drivers whereas Hamilton is raw speed and aggressive braking. I wonder if different types of brakes are installed on both Merc's?
Rosberg confirmed it yes. But he said it really varies from track to track. Sometimes they would use the same, other times not. The hybrid systems have also gotten to a point where u can adjust so much on the brake behaviour. In brazik it was when Rosberg was asking what Lewis was doing on the brakes. That might hint that they both had the same brake material for that race.
dans79 wrote:
Every team has tendencies, and those tendencies show through regardless of what the rules currently are, for example.
FI - always seems to be good on tires
RBR - High down-force
Williams - Low down-force & low drag
How is that relevant? What is your point?
I can't tell if you're serious or not, so I will go through this again.
A teams underlying design philosophy does not change just because the rules do. Not to mention the 2017 rule changes are not that significant in regards to design theory.
Merc has it's own design philosophy/tendencies just like all the other teams. Hamilton has been with the team for 4 years, so not only has he had plenty of time to adapt to the teams philosophy, he's also had an impact on it. just like any other incumbent driver.
Bottas is new to the team, and thus has had no impact on the cars design , and no experience with any quarks it might have do to Merc's design philosophy. Thus he will need time to adapt, bed in, and start influencing the design. It might take one day of pre-season testing, it might take half a season.
Your previous post made no sense to me, because it seemed to imply that Bottas would struggle or be disadvantaged with a slightly different approach to what a team deems to be the ideal car for any given F1 season. (note points below)
I think we fundamentally disagree on several points. I don't value Hamiltons previous experience at the team or his input into the design of the 2017 car, at all pace-wise. Neither do I think Bottas is disadvantaged because a switch in car philosophy. Reason for this all is, like i stated previously, that the 2017 cars and tyres will be significantly different. Therefor:
- All drivers will need to adapt to new grip levels. (no reason why Bottas should struggle more than his rivals)
- The W08 isn't a simple year-on-year evolution, thus Hamilton's experience with the W07 isn't worth much.
ME4ME wrote:
Reason for this all is, like i stated previously, that the 2017 cars and tyres will be significantly different.
Yea, I pretty strongly disagree with this. None of the underlying design fundamentals have changed. The only thing that's different is the dimensions have changed.
Your previous post made no sense to me, because it seemed to imply that Bottas would struggle or be disadvantaged with a slightly different approach to what a team deems to be the ideal car for any given F1 season. (note points below)
I think we fundamentally disagree on several points. I don't value Hamiltons previous experience at the team or his input into the design of the 2017 car, at all pace-wise. Neither do I think Bottas is disadvantaged because a switch in car philosophy. Reason for this all is, like i stated previously, that the 2017 cars and tyres will be significantly different. Therefor:
- All drivers will need to adapt to new grip levels. (no reason why Bottas should struggle more than his rivals)
- The W08 isn't a simple year-on-year evolution, thus Hamilton's experience with the W07 isn't worth much.
I think you both have a point, but if Hamilton drove the new Williams and Mercedes car without being told which is which he would be able to tell in the difference in the way the car reacts. I think the W08 would have some handling charistics of the W07, Hamilton would feel more comfortable than Bottas with the W08 because it's not totally alien to him but the Williams would.
dans79 wrote:Yea, I pretty strongly disagree with this. None of the underlying design fundamentals have changed. The only thing that's different is the dimensions have changed.
The cars and tyres change enough so that some corners have to be redefined as straights. Cars will be at wide open throttle for a prolonged period of time. Energy has to be recovered differently. Braking points are different, and the entire tyre-dynamic is different. I'd say that is significantly different, at least from a drivers point of view.
But fair enough, no need to come to agreement on everything. We'll see soon enough anyway.
ME4ME wrote:
- The W08 isn't a simple year-on-year evolution, thus Hamilton's experience with the W07 isn't worth much.
So your saying its worth something, which is what dans is saying. So Lewis does have an advantage. How ever small that maybe, you dont want to be giving any multiple world champion an advantage at all.
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I would say the biggest advantage is the relationship Lewis will have built up with the team, his engineers etc. how much that will translate into performance on track is any ones guess...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
PlatinumZealot wrote:Hamilton did have problems with the brakes that's true. But it was a special case like kimi with the steering rack and Button with grip. That's their weapon. They can't be 100% without those things working.
The good thing for Mercedes is that for the brakes, Bottas' preference should blend somewhere bewtween Hamilton and Rosberg. Hamilton is an agressive brake heater so his brake materials are generally harder to heat but once they are heated up they are hard to cool down. Rosberg is more normal on that scale. He needs a moderate heating material.
I don't expect Bottas to have any issues with the steering andI haven't heard him complain avout balance or grip much at all. He is pretty "tough" much like Rosberg. He has a very wide operating window. He will be fine.
If the rules were stable he undoubtedly would have a much lower starting point than Hamilton, since the cars will be very different this should be essentially negated.
Hamilton's brakes might need some more adjustments with these new cars for example.
Hamilton still has the advantage in terms of team familiarity and procedures.
Mercedes has brought for themselves a unique sort of headache. They have hired a driver, who is contract bound for 2018 with another team. To break that contract and retain him for next year, obviously Mercedes has to shell out a lot of money.
Critically, it has to be his performance that is going to be the determining factor in that. He is walking into a new team, where he has to understand the working procedures of that team, need to build the relationship with his engineers/mechanics and importantly, need to understand the car. It is to everyone's guess that he isn't going to be flying (to the full potential of the car) from the race one.
He would be up against the best qualifier on the grid and one of the very best racers on the grid. As soon as he trails behind Lewis, there would be disgruntled noises around that would put a lot of pressure on him. There would be unavoidable comparisons to what Nico could have done in the same car. If Red Bull, Ferrari or McLaren surprise with equally competitive car, he would have a mountain to climb in a new environment.
For Mercedes though, the headache is, if the competition gets tough, can they afford to put more focus on him to help him gain confidence in the car OR should they focus on their prime driver to go for the contest. If all these factor come together cumulatively, then where would he stand. Can Mercedes afford to put all their eggs in his basket, to help him if he is taking time to perform?
How long, is the right time for Mercedes to sort their minds to look for alternatives? As soon as Alonso and Vettel become available for 2018, based on their relative team's performance, obviously Mercedes has to start negotiations.
When Lewis moved from McLaren to Mercedes, he started feeling difficulties in breaking systems as he was so used to a totally different break supplier at McLaren. Those problems persisted all through 2014 and they could only fix it (or probably Lewis took time to get adjusted) in 2015. Initially, he was not very comfortable with the Interconnected suspension as he had developed his own technique for managing a diving car, rather than a stable one at the corners. No matter what, Bottas will have his own issues to sort out before becoming ONE with the car, even if the car the changing due to the regulations.
Every team maintains a certain DNA in their design philosophy and a driver who has been a part of that DNA, always has a bit of an advantage. Remember the clutch issues that hampered in 2016, that haven't gone away fully? While Lewis and Nico kind of sorted it out, there is going to be change again for next year. Experience of issues like that are going to be extremely handy.
