2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[GhostF1]

I can't say I'm surprised your excited since I've seen your previous posts. You said McLaren should wait to see Honda's big upgrade before they decide. After 6 months they deliver a 10bhp improvement. So let's say optimistic projection they manage to get another 10bhp by the end of the year. Then let's account to all the other teams improving there own engines by let's say another 10bhp this year. That means even if Mercedes stood still until the next engine formula Honda still wouldn't be able to match there engine from this year alone. We haven't even got into reliability and fuel consumption. But you go ahead and be excited I won't ruin your enthusiasm for Honda one day making a good engine but I'm just being realistic and McLaren sees it the same way that's why they are moving forwards with plan b.

Who says it's 10bhp?

Good point, it might be even less. I mean 10bhp is nothing to write home about when your miles away. That's barely a tenth of a second lol

I love your posts. Not constructive and just the same criticisms endlessly while conveniently leaving out fact.

Lets talk said facts and actually use our brains for a second.
No one has said 10hp. And if we ignore the tow speedtrap of 340+, Alonso hit 322.6km/h according to the FIA. Vandoorne hit 311.8..
That's an 11km/h difference between specs... That is far more than 10hp...
For more perspective. Hamilton was slower, Bottas was 1km/h faster and Vettel was 3km/h faster. For the chart, go to the power unit thread, page 629. There is definite progress and this will only get better with each time it's used and the mapping improved.

The reasoning the power unit is not being used for the rest of the GP is mainly and rather simply because they see it pointless to put mileage on it at a track where they'll be starting last due to penalties where it's difficult to overtake bar the straight, and honestly, they probably want to do a bit more map work as well. They need to ensure minimal penalties for the rest of the season. So why waste it here when it's still being set up. It's a shame we didn't get to see Alonso put in a proper timed lap as Hasegawa said, but next GP will be interesting.

I'm disappointed to see it won't be used this week and have to wait till the next race to really see their improvement, but I'm happy to see an improvement and at least both of them have the revised MGU-H so theoretically there shouldn't be a reason they can't both finish. And also seeing the amount of issues the other drivers had just staying on track. I'm expecting a pretty safety car heavy race. Who knows!

[ringo]

If Mercedes thinks there's even a remote chance that McLaren might beat them with their own engine, then it won't happen.
If Mercedes does sell engines to McLaren, it's because they firmly believe that McLaren is not a threat.

The thing is, this is a non-zero-sum game. Red Bull are better than the Merc customers in every way except the engine. Of course they're beating them! They have better drivers and they have a better chassis, which makes up for an engine deficit. But Mercedes, Mercedes is on a whole different level. We're not talking about beating the midfield, who run on middling budgets. We're talking about Mercedes, the team that has dominated the sport since 2014 and has the backing of a multi-billion dollar corporation. McLaren would need to beat Mercedes in both the chassis and the driver department to even have a shred of hope of winning with the same engine. And if recent history is any indication, it won't happen.

Mercedes can vastly outspend McLaren, and that's considering that McLaren are getting their engines for free. What would their budget look like if they lose Honda's $100m AND the free engines? Oh yeah, that engine money would now be going to Mercedes, the team they have to beat. Can sponsorships offset that? Perhaps, but then again, McLaren lost many of their biggest sponsors even before Honda came in the picture.

My personal opinion is that there's a better chance of Honda making a competitive engine than McLaren beating Mercedes with their own engine, which is why I support McLaren sticking with Honda.

Saying all this, you must agree that an equal deep pocketed engine supplier must make mclaren a superior engine to mercedes?
and i dont see that happening. The best engine out there is a mercedes engine and mclen need to give themselves the best chance. Going for anything less makes no sense. And thats what i felt with the honda move; mclaren had to believe honda were going to make a better engine by pumping more money and resources than mercedes did.

[ringo]

Mclaren need to be works team with a european engine supplier. Nothing against honda but Japan is continents away and this will not work for a works team. They should have approached BMW or even cosworth or porsche who now has lemans experience with ers.

[Sayeman]

Mclaren need to be works team with a european engine supplier. Nothing against honda but Japan is continents away and this will not work for a works team. They should have approached BMW or even cosworth or porsche who now has lemans experience with ers.

Like all the european manufacturers were lining up to supply Mclaren with Power units right? Who says Dennis didnt approach them first before contacting Honda? Honda was the only one interested.

Luca di Montezemolo mentioned in an interview that Mercedes might have been developing the PU for 10 years before the new PU regs were introduced. Considering how Ecclestone said that Mercedes helped Ferrar wit PU technology, i think that partly explains how Ferrari were able to make such quick gains.

Even Alonso wasn't convinced that getting a Merc PU will make them world beaters, why some posters here think otherwise I don't understand.

[RedNEO]

Mclaren need to be works team with a european engine supplier. Nothing against honda but Japan is continents away and this will not work for a works team. They should have approached BMW or even cosworth or porsche who now has lemans experience with ers.

Like all the european manufacturers were lining up to supply Mclaren with Power units right? Who says Dennis didnt approach them first before contacting Honda? Honda was the only one interested.

Luca di Montezemolo mentioned in an interview that Mercedes might have been developing the PU for 10 years before the new PU regs were introduced. Considering how Ecclestone said that Mercedes helped Ferrar wit PU technology, i think that partly explains how Ferrari were able to make such quick gains.

Even Alonso wasn't convinced that getting a Merc PU will make them world beaters, why some posters here think otherwise I don't understand.

That was an interview done while the team is still with Honda of course he's not going to say they should switch to Mercedes to the media.

What's clear is as long as McLaren is with Honda they will not be world beaters. How some people think staying with Honda is better than going with Mercedes I won't understand.

[Andres125sx]

After 6 months they deliver a 10bhp improvement.

False, as explained on my downvote, 15kmh improvement are a lot more than 10bhp increase, no need to distort reality to bash Honda, they provide more than enough reasons to bash them, if you feel the need to invent/distort reality even more you must have some sort of visceral hate to Honda

Also, that´s not the full spec 3.0, only part of it, and it was its first run on a track, so the mapping must be light years far from being optimal. Saying after 6 months they deliver 10bhp is so biased and unreal I´m socked with your statement

Because they probably know it will break down they are too scared.

False again, it´s a new PU they probably need to check after some use in real life to see if it´s working as expected, if the mappings used are the best or not, if something can be improved with the setup... It would be nosense to race it here if they still don´t know what´s the best setup for this spec, imagine if they run it at a sub-optimal setup wich causes some degradation or over-wear so the new PU fails before expected not because reliability issues but because of using a sub-optimal setup... Imagine that situation and Honda trying to explain to the media it´s not a reliability issue

And that would also mean more penalties wich could have been avoided only waiting until setting up the mappings

What's clear is as long as McLaren is with Honda they will not be world beaters.

Your crystal ball can tell you the loto numbers too? That would be way more useful

How some people think staying with Honda is better than going with Mercedes I won't understand.

If you can´t understand how being a works team is better than being a customer team, then sorry, I can´t help you




Seriously, stop the rant, it was enough

[RedNEO]

After 6 months they deliver a 10bhp improvement.

False, as explained on my downvote, 15kmh improvement are a lot more than 10bhp increase, no need to distort reality to bash Honda, they provide more than enough reasons to bash them, if you feel the need to invent/distort reality even more you must have some sort of visceral hate to Honda

Also, that´s not the full spec 3.0, only part of it, and it was its first run on a track, so the mapping must be light years far from being optimal. Saying after 6 months they deliver 10bhp is so biased and unreal I´m socked with your statement

Because they probably know it will break down they are too scared.

False again, it´s a new PU they probably need to check after some use in real life to see if it´s working as expected, if the mappings used are the best or not, if something can be improved with the setup... It would be nosense to race it here if they still don´t know what´s the best setup for this spec, imagine if they run it at a sub-optimal setup wich causes some degradation or over-wear so the new PU fails before expected not because reliability issues but because of using a sub-optimal setup... Imagine that situation and Honda trying to explain to the media it´s not a reliability issue

And that would also mean more penalties wich could have been avoided only waiting until setting up the mappings

What's clear is as long as McLaren is with Honda they will not be world beaters.

Your crystal ball can tell you the loto numbers too? That would be way more useful

How some people think staying with Honda is better than going with Mercedes I won't understand.

If you can´t understand how being a works team is better than being a customer team, then sorry, I can´t help you




Seriously, stop the rant, it was enough

Your seriously deluded if you think being a Honda works team is actually an advantage after witnessing the last three years. I've already told you Mercedes and Ferrari works teams will always have an advantage over any Honda works team because there in house. So just getting with Honda because you get to be a works team loses its significance and Honda being the worst engine out of all of them just makes that decision look even more stupid. Look at Williams they would prefer to stay with Mercedes than become a Honda works team. But carry on rating my post negative because you don't like the truth I don't care.

[Andres125sx]

What I dislike is distorting the truth.

Where did you get this new PU only improved 10bhp or even less as you´ve stated in this thread?

[etusch]

Being works team is so important that if merc would give mclaren not just PU but whole car, again mclaren could not beat them. As Everybody accept merc chassis better than this mclaren. İf someone follows motorsports he must already know this. İn motogp for example. There are Honda's and yamaha's sattelite teams with same bike and same engine. They can win sometimes but I didn't see one of them favorite for WDC.
You can say that with this Honda PU being work team not givies much which is not true but acceptable. But can't say anything about being works team if you interested in motorsports.
Especially after this Friday I am very optimistic second half of the season. There is an old and maybe boring saying about half filled glass. Maybe we are (Honda fans) too optimistic about Honda but you are too pesimist about it. I am sure you will also accept that Honda will do competitive PU at the end. İt is time matter. Maybe Honda can not build most powerful PU, but could do competitive one . İmagine that Honda PU has lesser power than best engine (for now it is merc ı guess ) 15-20 power less. Same level chassis and lighter PU. When we consider that ferrari are about to beat merc ( I believe Vettel will be WDC) with almost same level PU and almost same level chassis ( I think ferrari have a bit better chassis) that will make mclaren very competitive. Now think this season. İf this ferrari have 10 Kg lighter and lower Cog PU, what would happen?
Because of power deficit we are all concentrated to that area. But when things come together Everybody will start to talk about that.

[DarkSurferZA]

Not sure how the Honda bashers get 10hp but a 10mph difference requires at least 40+ more HP at 200mph. The advantage for Honda/McLaren is not just in park HP, but in power delivery (driveability), power through the rpm range, feul consumption, reliability etc.

I am not aware that there is anyone on this board that has access to that data other than Honda and McLaren. So let's just watch the engine develop and make a call once we see a full GP on the engine.

For the people who comment saying it is a 100% power output mode on the engine, has there ever been an engine that went to 100% output mode on testing? We didn't see Ferrari or Mercedes run their engine at max till week 2 in winter testing.

Anyway, let's hear if McLaren stay being positive and then we will know.

Sent from my SM-T815 using Tapatalk

[ringo]

I hope that speed difference that is being used to guess a horsepower figure is the difference between honda spec engines and not being compared to other team's cars and engines. You can only compare the difference in speed between the driver using a newer spec to an older spec and it must be on the same track.So i don't know what reference is really being used here to guess how much horsepower honda has gained throughout the year.
I dont think we can know that. We would have to be told explicitly by the team or the drivers.

Anyhow conventional wisdom doesn't make works status honda powered team better than a customer status mercedes team. And if we want to see mclaren win races, it will not be with a Honda engine for the next 2 to 3 years at least. Honda simply have demonstrated that they are way behind the others.
It's almost like a newly developed country trying to equal the united states in military power. They can work hard at it and have the technology; but they simply haven't been in the game long enough to catch up; nor do they have the resources and effort put in over time.
So i think mclaren need to go to mercedes or go knocking on Porsche's or bmw's door for a Hybrid Power Unit.

[RedNEO]

I hope that speed difference that is being used to guess a horsepower figure is the difference between honda spec engines and not being compared to other team's cars and engines. You can only compare the difference in speed between the driver using a newer spec to an older spec and it must be on the same track.So i don't know what reference is really being used here to guess how much horsepower honda has gained throughout the year.
I dont think we can know that. We would have to be told explicitly by the team or the drivers.

Anyhow conventional wisdom doesn't make works status honda powered team better than a customer status mercedes team. And if we want to see mclaren win races, it will not be with a Honda engine for the next 2 to 3 years at least. Honda simply have demonstrated that they are way behind the others.
It's almost like a newly developed country trying to equal the united states in military power. They can work hard at it and have the technology; but they simply haven't been in the game long enough to catch up; nor do they have the resources and effort put in over time.
So i think mclaren need to go to mercedes or go knocking on Porsche's or bmw's door for a Hybrid Power Unit.

And it looks like Mercedes just offered another hint at the rumoured McLaren Mercedes partnership as Toto just confirmed they would consider supplying McLaren once they split with Honda. It's looking good for McLaren

[etusch]

İf Honda can achieve objectives of this season ( assuming 30 hp with this update and another 30 with spec 3 ) and a step forward for next season with mcaren I think they can win races next year.

[GhostF1]

I love your posts. Not constructive and just the same criticisms endlessly while conveniently leaving out fact.

Lets talk said facts and actually use our brains for a second.
No one has said 10hp. And if we ignore the tow speedtrap of 340+, Alonso hit 322.6km/h according to the FIA. Vandoorne hit 311.8..
That's an 11km/h difference between specs... That is far more than 10hp...
For more perspective. Hamilton was slower, Bottas was 1km/h faster and Vettel was 3km/h faster. For the chart, go to the power unit thread, page 629. There is definite progress and this will only get better with each time it's used and the mapping improved.

The reasoning the power unit is not being used for the rest of the GP is mainly and rather simply because they see it pointless to put mileage on it at a track where they'll be starting last due to penalties where it's difficult to overtake bar the straight, and honestly, they probably want to do a bit more map work as well. They need to ensure minimal penalties for the rest of the season. So why waste it here when it's still being set up. It's a shame we didn't get to see Alonso put in a proper timed lap as Hasegawa said, but next GP will be interesting.

I'm disappointed to see it won't be used this week and have to wait till the next race to really see their improvement, but I'm happy to see an improvement and at least both of them have the revised MGU-H so theoretically there shouldn't be a reason they can't both finish. And also seeing the amount of issues the other drivers had just staying on track. I'm expecting a pretty safety car heavy race. Who knows!

You realise your just comparing one turned up PU to people running around with Friday engines with the wick turned down right?

Clearly you've been drinking the Honda kool-aid for some time judging by how you present yourself as having "real facts" about the engine performance when that's just utter guess work and blind optimism based on a Friday session.

Maybe you should drink some of that too considering how you are getting all hysterical.

Haha I've been drinking Honda Kool-Aid... Hilarious thought. You're assuming that the Honda engine was at 100%, which basic logic would say it's impossible. It was just introduced for two practice runs. You're making premature assumptions based on nothing but personal endeavours that have no base other than to actually terminally destabilise the notion there will be any improvement whatsoever this season. I bring forward actual co.parisons from the FIA versus the previous spec Honda unit also on track (the one you say is wild speculation...) You are what's wrong the community here, you fuel wild media speculation and rubbish the facts that have been stated from the FIA, McLaren or Honda themselves. Yes I don't personally have all the facts and I don't claim to know everything Honda or McLaren does. You however, seem to know everything and claim it's all pointless. I've usually skipped over the rubbish you post because it's usually ill informed hatred to fire on a debate that's months old, but your last post in the shadow of an update that brought obvious, genuine progress was enough. Get on side and look at the facts beyond speculated, opinionated media commentary you've stumbled across at some point during the day and maybe contribute.

[RedNEO]

You realise your just comparing one turned up PU to people running around with Friday engines with the wick turned down right?

Clearly you've been drinking the Honda kool-aid for some time judging by how you present yourself as having "real facts" about the engine performance when that's just utter guess work and blind optimism based on a Friday session.

Maybe you should drink some of that too considering how you are getting all hysterical.

Haha I've been drinking Honda Kool-Aid... Hilarious thought. You're assuming that the Honda engine was at 100%, which basic logic would say it's impossible. It was just introduced for two practice runs. You're making premature assumptions based on nothing but personal endeavours that have no base other than to actually terminally destabilise the notion there will be any improvement whatsoever this season. I bring forward actual co.parisons from the FIA versus the previous spec Honda unit also on track (the one you say is wild speculation...) You are what's wrong the community here, you fuel wild media speculation and rubbish the facts that have been stated from the FIA, McLaren or Honda themselves. Yes I don't personally have all the facts and I don't claim to know everything Honda or McLaren does. You however, seem to know everything and claim it's all pointless. I've usually skipped over the rubbish you post because it's usually ill informed hatred to fire on a debate that's months old, but your last post in the shadow of an update that brought obvious, genuine progress was enough. Get on side and look at the facts beyond speculated, opinionated media commentary you've stumbled across at some point during the day and maybe contribute.

Smh you can carry on defending Honda until the cows come home but it won't change the fact they won't be challenging for anything significant in this formula. I'll leave you to enjoy there progresss next year with a sauber chassis that's at a similar level to there engine.