Mercedes - the eternal debating abyss.

[wunderkind]

Seijakessen,

If you think Mercedes is no more prestigious than Peugeot, then I have nothing to say. I will not attempt to try to convince you.

Lamborghini was just not a viable option. End of story.

In 1994/1995, Merc as it pertains to F1 was no more prestigious than Peugeot.

Why?

They hadn't competed in any shape or form in F1 since 1955.

Not competing for 40 years hardly lends any measure of prestige...other than to perhaps those who haven't noticed time has since passed on by.

I don't quite know what to say. I really don't know.

[wunderkind]

Ah but don't you know, based on the deal Ron the Con agreed to in Frankfurt with a handshake, Lamborghini set about revising the engine to meet the specs that Ayrton Senna wanted?

.........and you seriously believe Lamborghini had the funding and resources to fulfill their promise? I'm glad Ron was not as gullible. I think Ron smartened up and gave up after touring the Lamborghini facility.

[xpensive]

Find yourselves fellow members, Cosworth had a V8 and no money, Chrysler had a bulky V12 with some money, Peugeot had a Group C derived V10 and some more money, while Mercedes had a V10 with a ton of money. Go figure.

[mep]

Yes, the Germans make great specialist measurement machineries and dyno's. but most parts are made by Japanese CNC machines.

I have seen a couple of manufacturing companies and they ALL had German CNC machines. I never even noticed a Japanese one. What I did see btw. are Chinese ones, which are unbeatable cheap but useless for high precision machining. Not to mention that the South is actually famous for its manufacturing machines. Also Germany is not world leading in export just because of measurement machines or dynos. I wonder if you base that comment just on a restricted experience.
Also it is no problem to operate a international team/company in English no matter if it is based in Germany or not. Even if you go down to the level of regular blue collar worker they are able to understand English because they are trained to do so. If you don't like the Sauber example then take Ferrari. I am sure they don't just have Italian employees.

[xpensive]

What you want as a customer is swift and certain deliveries to your spec, nothing more or less, I couldn't care less where it comes from and produced with what machinery. That's about it.

[wunderkind]

Yes, the Germans make great specialist measurement machineries and dyno's. but most parts are made by Japanese CNC machines.

I have seen a couple of manufacturing companies and they ALL had German CNC machines. I never even noticed a Japanese one. What I did see btw. are Chinese ones, which are unbeatable cheap but useless for high precision machining. Not to mention that the South is actually famous for its manufacturing machines. Also Germany is not world leading in export just because of measurement machines or dynos. I wonder if you base that comment just on a restricted experience.
Also it is no problem to operate a international team/company in English no matter if it is based in Germany or not. Even if you go down to the level of regular blue collar worker they are able to understand English because they are trained to do so. If you don't like the Sauber example then take Ferrari. I am sure they don't just have Italian employees.

Sorry mep. I don't like anything you wrote.

[mep]

Sorry mep. I don't like anything you wrote.

Who cares if you like what I wrote?
Should I delete it to make you feel better?

[SeijaKessen]

Seijakessen,

If you think Mercedes is no more prestigious than Peugeot, then I have nothing to say. I will not attempt to try to convince you.

Lamborghini was just not a viable option. End of story.

In 1994/1995, Merc as it pertains to F1 was no more prestigious than Peugeot.

Why?

They hadn't competed in any shape or form in F1 since 1955.

Not competing for 40 years hardly lends any measure of prestige...other than to perhaps those who haven't noticed time has since passed on by.

I don't quite know what to say. I really don't know.

Wunderkind, that's fine. We can agree to disagree.

My notion of prestige is somewhat different from yours, and I don't hold it against you for feeling different.

When the French came a-calling with bags of Francs --I miss the days prior to the Euro-- Ron the Con was more than happy to renege on his deal with Lamborghini. If Ron cared about winning quite as much as people would like to think, he would have listened to Senna regarding the Lamborghini V12 and done it so he could keep his driver at McLaren. That would have ensured a greater chance of winning.

[SeijaKessen]

Find yourselves fellow members, Cosworth had a V8 and no money, Chrysler had a bulky V12 with some money, Peugeot had a Group C derived V10 and some more money, while Mercedes had a V10 with a ton of money. Go figure.

The man/team/company with the most money tends to win out most of the time in spite of any evidence that it may not be the best move.

[SeijaKessen]

Ah but don't you know, based on the deal Ron the Con agreed to in Frankfurt with a handshake, Lamborghini set about revising the engine to meet the specs that Ayrton Senna wanted?

.........and you seriously believe Lamborghini had the funding and resources to fulfill their promise? I'm glad Ron was not as gullible. I think Ron smartened up and gave up after touring the Lamborghini facility.

Lamborghini was quite serious about providing a capable engine to McLaren.

McLaren was quite serious about reworking the MP4/8 chassis to carry the V12, and did so.

Then Ron the Con was mesmerized by the Francs left on his doorstep and suddenly decided the Peugeot V10 was the perfect choice.

Then he had an epiphany and suddenly decided the Ilmo---I mean Merc V10 was the perfect choice even though the only real difference at the time was the payment changed from Francs to Deutsche Marks, and was considerably more in sum.

[zyphro]

I am sure they don't just have Italian employees.

That's right (Pat Fry etc).

Although, those who have been there for a lengthy period have learnt Italian. Rob Smedley can speak in Italian, very, very fluently.

[zyphro]

Find yourselves fellow members, Cosworth had a V8 and no money, Chrysler had a bulky V12 with some money, Peugeot had a Group C derived V10 and some more money, while Mercedes had a V10 with a ton of money. Go figure.

The engines that were most 'xpensive'.... .

[marcush.]

a bit off topic ..wasn´t itBrawn who lured Smedley to ferrari telling him there was no issue with him not speaking any italien and as he arrived he realised Nobody would speak english?
As I have worked in italy near Ferrari i´m pretyy sure on shop level Smedley had a quite interesting time for the first two years... In fact till he had his italien sorted..
You can get away with feet and hands in italy very well no question but you also need to understand what the guys are talking ...

[Pierce89]

a bit off topic ..wasn´t itBrawn who lured Smedley to ferrari telling him there was no issue with him not speaking any italien and as he arrived he realised Nobody would speak english?
As I have worked in italy near Ferrari i´m pretyy sure on shop level Smedley had a quite interesting time for the first two years... In fact till he had his italien sorted..
You can get away with feet and hands in italy very well no question but you also need to understand what the guys are talking ...

Anecdotally, Ferrari is quite bad in the "speak Italian or kiss my a$$" department. I've often pictured Brawn trying to "communicate" with a shop floor fabricator

back on topic: I see no reason why a true "Mercedes" should be based anywhere other than Germany. Toyota's Cologne based TMG actually started getting quite competitive in their last 2 seasons.

[xpensive]

I would think twice before I enter a workshop in Germany without a grasp of the local dialect, or at least Hannover-german?

But this is all academic now isn't it, DrZ was conned to believe there was a shortcut to fame and fortune, but has now learned the hard way there is no such thing in F1, while he has also realized that his doctor's-hat means zip when dealing with MrE.

He will close the Brackley doors end of the season and present it to the board as a cost-saving measure of biblical proportions.

In the mean time, he's giving up on this farce and has ordered RB to downsize, only to find out that Bell the Well, Will the Thrill and the Italian Stallion has all been given bullet-proof contracts which will cost an arm and a leg to break out of.