Max Mosley's history

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xpensive
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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Good call, esteemed moderator!

Selling the commercial rights for 99 years is evidence enough that it was a well orchestrated inside job,
masterminded by MrM and MrE in collusion, unless the former is outright retaded, which I seriously doubt.

How such a sale was legal is beyond me anyway, 99 years?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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The FiA had to separate the governing aspects and the commercial function to satisfy the EU requirements. So the indefinite sale of the commercial rights was basically ok. If criticism is leveled it should be specific to the details of that series of deals. What exactly were the questionable actions by Mr. Mosley?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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F1 has grown inspite of Max Mosley.

How anyone can defend his actions is beyond me. For me its quite clear why Max was FIA president, It was a powertrip for him first and foremost. The illusion of this power played into Bernies hands as he could use Max to get away with stupendous FIA balls ups like the 99 year rights sale.
Let alone allowing the Ferrari veto, whcih at its core was unfair to every other competitor.

Very glad to see the back of him and his dictatorial style.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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WhiteBlue wrote:The FiA had to separate the governing aspects and the commercial function to satisfy the EU requirements. So the indefinite sale of the commercial rights was basically ok. If criticism is leveled it should be specific to the details of that series of deals. What exactly were the questionable actions by Mr. Mosley?
99 years "ok"?
More could have been done.
David Purley

gridwalker
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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A 99-year lease was, under historic common law, the longest possible term of a lease of real property. It is no longer the law in most common law jurisdictions today, yet 99-year leases continue to be common as a matter of business practice and conventional wisdom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99-year_lease

It just sounds like a de-rigeur business practice to me; I always suspected that the FIA was an old-boy's network, just like any other sector where private member's clubs and big business intertwine ...

Shocking? Maybe ... Surprising? No ...
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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Would the Premiership sell out to 99 years?
Hell no, thats why its such a rich league!
More could have been done.
David Purley

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Would the Premiership sell out to 99 years?
Hell no, thats why its such a rich league!
The premiership isn't the global governing body for football. If it was owned by FIFA it would be different.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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But its applicable because F1 on its own is about as popular as the premiership.
Commercially they are of equal value. Fifa dont give rights to respective countries, they form a federation with each country getting a slice of the pie while paying homage to FiFa.

The FIA on the other hand havbe taken these rights and sold them to a third party!
Whats wrong with the teams owning the sport under the guise of FOTA?

What did Bernie pay? And what has he got out of it?

These 2 questions will give you an indication as to why its so corrupt.
More could have been done.
David Purley

xpensive
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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Pissing away the commercial rights to a Giga-bucks money-machine like F1 for a measly 3 MUSD per annum, to an old business-ally?

Totally outrageous to xpress it mildly.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

andrew
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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Well I read leases for avarious properties on a nearly daily basis (and have been doing so for about 4 years now) and have yet to come accross or hear about any 99 year long leases. Maybe Scot's law is different in this respect to other areas but a 25-30 year lease tends to be the longest we ever see and is classed as a long lease.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Andrew Scots law is indeed different. In England its the norm to have 50 75 and 99 year lease's.
More could have been done.
David Purley

andrew
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I know that ground leases are into the 50 - 100 years but property is never that long, even for local authorites.

You English landlords are just too trusting of your tenants! :lol:

But on topic, 99 years for the commercial rights just smacks of a backhander somewhere along the line. Bernie has about 5 - 15 years left until he kicks the bucket unless he is one of those rare examples that lives to be 120! His daughter seems to be a complete spoilt poor little rich kid who doesn't know here backside from her elbow - kind of makes me a bit concerned about F1s future. Say what you like about Bernie Ecclestone's business practises, but he has been good at exploting various parties in making F1 widely available worldwide.

gridwalker
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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andrew wrote:I know that ground leases are into the 50 - 100 years but property is never that long, even for local authorites.

You English landlords are just too trusting of your tenants! :lol:

But on topic, 99 years for the commercial rights just smacks of a backhander somewhere along the line. Bernie has about 5 - 15 years left until he kicks the bucket unless he is one of those rare examples that lives to be 120! His daughter seems to be a complete spoilt poor little rich kid who doesn't know here backside from her elbow - kind of makes me a bit concerned about F1s future. Say what you like about Bernie Ecclestone's business practises, but he has been good at exploting various parties in making F1 widely available worldwide.
The basis of the 99 year lease is that it extends beyond the natural life expectancy of the person who holds the lease, effectively granting them a lease for life.

This procedure is a widely accepted practice propagated through common law; 99 years is seen as the upper legal maximum in many territories and has been used as an intergovernmental standard for large scale territory leasing (e.g. UK lease of Hong Kong and US lease of Guantanamo Bay) ... compared to the money channeled through Hong Kong, the F1 commercial rights are pocket money!
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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xpensive wrote:Pissing away the commercial rights to a Giga-bucks money-machine like F1 for a measly 3 MUSD per annum, to an old business-ally?

Totally outrageous to xpress it mildly.
This comment shows

A. Total lack of understanding business risks and finance

B. An emotional bias which makes it unlikely that we will ever get a solid critical comment from the author.


The income from F1 was never meant to be 100% income to the FiA. The business was created by Bernie with substantial share holding of the teams. The FiA had a very small traditional income from their own property. Before Bernie created the business the race promoters were the biggest money makers in F1 racing.

Bernie created the idea to sell the TV rights including the advertising trackside and he got the race promoters to pay him, the FiA and the teams to pay race fees. He also started the paddock business of corporate hospitality which he used to run through a straw man for many years.

So by the time when complaints were made to the EU competition authorities about the dual role of the FiA as governing body and holder of commercial interests in F1 there was the situation that Bernie had created the business, knew all the secrete data of performance and was controlling the business by his special relationship with the teams.

Interested parties in buying the business from the FiA would have a very difficult job to create a strategy to bid against him. There were many uncertainties. How would F1 extract themselves from Europe and expand to a global sport? How much money would the teams get out of the commercial rights holder long term if it was an outsider who did not know the ropes? How would the fees and paddock business develop depending of the competition for future grands prix? How would TV revenues and cost shape up in the age of digital TV.

It turned out that nobody contemplated the risk of running that business against the established entrepreneur which isn't too surprising. Most people who tried to do it with Bernie's support actually failed. Does someone remember the Hoffa brothers and Leo Kirch?

As it stood in 2001 (which was around the time when this went down) $ 330 mil was a lot of money and including the interest for 99 years it looked a lot bigger.

People who criticize the deal with hindsight always compare what Bernie managed to squeeze out of the business in the following years. They forget that nobody else would have had the means and the ruthlessness to make that much money. Bernie ripped them all off. The teams eventually managed to substantially increase their share of the fortune but the poor fans really were taken to the cleaners. Bernie opened the grands prix to many countries in Asia and Arabia which had traditionally never been competitors and pushed the sanctioning fees to unprecedented levels. A ticket which should be thirty or perhaps fifty bucks was now going up to 150 and 200. Tax payers were poring in hundreds of millions that were never expected to swell the profits of FOM, but Bernie got away with it. Nobody but Bernie could have pulled all these stunts because the man simply controlled the teams which had always been the strategic strength the business was based on.

Those people who argue with todays enormous FOM profits conveniently forget that nobody but Bernie would have been able to generate them in the first place. Who else but Bernie would have managed to avoid spitting F1 eventually in the summer of 2009? Who else but Bernie (and the teams in his back pocket) would shamelessly rob every other stake holder of the last penny and get away with it? NOBODY.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 25 Jun 2010, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

andrew
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Re: Max Mosley's history

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Sounds like a dodgy deal behind the pub. Only $3 mill? Just doesn't sould right. It must be all profit.