Horsepower of the engines.

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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henry
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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Joseki wrote:
henry wrote:
Joseki wrote:
Here there are actual data from Magneti Marelli but from Bahrain. 2 MJ recovered from MGU-K are definitely too much.
Can you point me at these figures? Brembo say Bahrain is heavy on brakes. 20% of a 100 second lap. Which gives an energy recovery potential of 2.4 mJ
Sorry I forgot to put the link, here it is:

http://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-sim ... smissione/" target="_blank" target="_blank

"ERS La MGU-H e la MGU-K comportano un guadagno di 2”5 per giro, corrispondenti a +21 km/h di velocità massima. In Bahrein, la MGU-K può recuperare fino a 1.085 kJ al giro in frenata, mentre la MGU-H può arrivare fino a 2.815 KJ al giro per un totale di 3.900 KJ per giro."

MGU-K can recover 1.085 kJ in a lap, the MGU-H 2.815 kJ.
Thanks.

brembo suggest that 20% of the lap is spent braking. ( https://formula1.brembo.com/en/tracciat ... -17-19-apr)
For a lap of 100 seconds that suggests the potential braking energy at 20 X 120, 2,400 mJ.

1,085 suggests a recovery efficiency of 45%.

I'm surprised at that. If this efficiency applies at all circuits there are none that recover the full 2 mJ. Not even Singapore with 24% of a long lap braking.

On the other hand 2815 kJ over 66 seconds ( about the amount of time at max throttle) comes out at 42.6 kW for the MGU-H, which is in the region predicted by other posters on this forum.
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ringo
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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gruntguru wrote:I was referring to the post before mine in which Henry looks at the total energy budget for a lap. At Barcelona there is 52 seconds at WOT during which the MGUK can use 120 kW x 52 s = 6.24 MJ of energy. If the total energy recovered per lap from the MGUH plus regen from the K is more than 6.24 MJ - how do you best use the rest?
Ok, i'm not sure it probably may have to power some ancillaries like the water pump or some other parasitic system on the engine or car.
Henry's post also shows that fuel available per lap (1.515 kg at Barcelona) is not sufficient to supply all the WOT and part throttle running. One solution (if the total above is > 6.24 MJ) would be to send some electrical energy to the K during part throttle running eg 80 kW ICE + 120 kW MGUK = 200 kW to the wheels etc.
So what you are saying is that the engine will produce 80kW from combustion.
And the K will produce its maximum 120kW, for a total of 200kW to the wheels.
I thought that you were saying that the K would produce 200kW.
Under that premise, i was going to say that the K is the only thing that can turn electrical energy to rotational energy to the wheels. The K's output is limited to 120kW, so you cannot add 80kW electrical as an output; even if it is available from the ES. You would simply have to use that energy to power some thing else on the car or drive the MGUH as super chager for the full rev range.
But now that you say it's the ICE producing the 80kW , i see what you are saying.
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godlameroso
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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I'm sure they could save a lot of fuel in part throttle with the MGU-K and cylinder de-activation. A lot of energy is wasted in overcoming the friction and inertial losses of the drive and power train. Having the MGU-H and K to essentially eliminate those losses would certainly be worth it. Also the ES is limited to 4MJ from full state of charge to minimum state of charge per lap, the rules say nothing about having an ES that can store more than 4MJ. If you can harvest over 4MJ per lap it can only help you. As long as the ES is between 20-25kg you can have an 8MJ battery capacity for all they care, as long as you stick to the 4MJ state of charge per lap. There's many different strategies you can employ to not only save fuel but also improve performance at the same time.

I don't think it's impossible with continued development that they can essentially deploy 120kW for over 40 seconds continuously. 33 seconds coming from the ES, and the rest from the MGU-H -> MGU-K, any excess goes back to the ES. Also the amount of energy you can send to the MGU-H to and from the ES is also unlimited.

Another thing I find interesting in the energy flow chart is that there is a non ERS energy store that can hold up to 300kJ, I wonder if that's a simple battery for the onboard electronics? Another thing I don't quite get is what are those "other ancillaries"? They're not outlined in the regulations at all.
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pgfpro
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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Joseki wrote:
henry wrote:
Joseki wrote:
Here there are actual data from Magneti Marelli but from Bahrain. 2 MJ recovered from MGU-K are definitely too much.
Can you point me at these figures? Brembo say Bahrain is heavy on brakes. 20% of a 100 second lap. Which gives an energy recovery potential of 2.4 mJ
Sorry I forgot to put the link, here it is:

http://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-sim ... smissione/" target="_blank

"ERS La MGU-H e la MGU-K comportano un guadagno di 2”5 per giro, corrispondenti a +21 km/h di velocità massima. In Bahrein, la MGU-K può recuperare fino a 1.085 kJ al giro in frenata, mentre la MGU-H può arrivare fino a 2.815 KJ al giro per un totale di 3.900 KJ per giro."

MGU-K can recover 1.085 kJ in a lap, the MGU-H 2.815 kJ.
Thanks for the link!!! Up vote for you.
To bad these cars cant recovery the braking energy off the front brakes?
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henry
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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godlameroso wrote:I'm sure they could save a lot of fuel in part throttle with the MGU-K and cylinder de-activation. A lot of energy is wasted in overcoming the friction and inertial losses of the drive and power train. Having the MGU-H and K to essentially eliminate those losses would certainly be worth it. Also the ES is limited to 4MJ from full state of charge to minimum state of charge per lap, the rules say nothing about having an ES that can store more than 4MJ. If you can harvest over 4MJ per lap it can only help you. As long as the ES is between 20-25kg you can have an 8MJ battery capacity for all they care, as long as you stick to the 4MJ state of charge per lap. There's many different strategies you can employ to not only save fuel but also improve performance at the same time.

.
I thought the same but I was wrong.

The wording is "the difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4 mJ at any time the car is on the track. So you can't concatenate energy over multiple laps.
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henry
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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godlameroso wrote:
I don't think it's impossible with continued development that they can essentially deploy 120kW for over 40 seconds continuously. 33 seconds coming from the ES, and the rest from the MGU-H -> MGU-K, any excess goes back to the ES. Also the amount of energy you can send to the MGU-H to and from the ES is also unlimited.
In qualification the regs say you can start the lap with 4 mJ , captured during the preceding lap, and add 2 mJ from the MGU-K during the qualification lap making 6 mJ that could be deployed over 50 seconds.

In practice I think they may start the lap with less than 4 mJ because they will use some accelerating out of the last corner to achieve the shortest time from the timing line to the first corner. This will depend on the track but something like 3.5 mJ at the start of the lap might be representative.

It is also unlikely that they can capture 2 mJ from braking. Perhaps only 1 mJ.

So they would have 4.5 giving 37 seconds deployment.

I think, however that they can capture additional energy in the sections of the track that are not Wide Open Throttle by driving the MGU-K with the ICE. If they can do that they that for 12 seconds then that can get to 5.5 mJ for 46 seconds.

In addition they can capture energy from the MGU-H in the part throttle sections to lift the total to 6 or even more. And when they drive the MGU-K the output from the MGU-H will be higher.

I have attempted to model this for a number of circuits using the magnetti marelli figures above, 45% brake energy recovery and 43 kW MGU-H. Most come out around 5.8 mJ with only Monza much out of step at 5.2
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godlameroso
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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I think a great deal of MGU-H harvesting is done during WOT between gears 5-8, but most of that goes to the K directly.

Also my point about having an ES that can store more than 4MJ is that even though you can only use 4MJ per lap, and your state of charge is limited to 4MJ min and max, you forget that a battery is much more efficient during charge and discharge when less of it's total capacity is used. You can't think about it in terms of single laps, you have to look at it in terms of a race stint.
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henry
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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henry wrote:
In qualification the regs say you can start the lap with 4 mJ , captured during the preceding lap, and add 2 mJ from the MGU-K during the qualification lap making 6 mJ that could be deployed over 50 seconds
I quote myself here because it's arrant nonsense.

The notion of ES state of charge being translated into seconds of MGU-K comes from the old v8 + KERS way of looking at things. But that's not how it's done now.

There are two ways of deploying the ES.

It can be used to drive the MGU-K to supplement energy from the MGU-H in self sustain mode. The power out is ICE power plus 120 kW. The ES drain power is 120 minus whatever the MGU-H is generating. It is this drain power that is limited to 4 mJ per lap.

So for the 42 kW MGU-H this can be sustained for 51 seconds.

The other way is when the wastegate is open and the ES drives both the MGUs. The power out is EnhancedICE plus the 120 kW the ES drain power is 120 plus whatever is needed to drive the compressor.

If the compressor power is 80 kW that makes 200 kW drain. The length of time this can be sustained is down to the overall charge level up to the maximum of 33 seconds for the flow to the MGU-K. So if you can find 3 mJ you can run this mode for 33 seconds. This would allow a full laps worth of WOT at Monaco but would leave you over 40 seconds of WOT short at Spa. In fact at Spa with MGU-H at 42 kW you'd still be 20 seconds short of running the MGU-K at 120 kW in Self sustain mode. About 67 kW is needed for that.

At other tracks there is a trickier balancing act, running early parts of WOT with the wastegate open and later in SS mode with ES assist.
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henry
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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godlameroso wrote:I think a great deal of MGU-H harvesting is done during WOT between gears 5-8, but most of that goes to the K directly.

Also my point about having an ES that can store more than 4MJ is that even though you can only use 4MJ per lap, and your state of charge is limited to 4MJ min and max, you forget that a battery is much more efficient during charge and discharge when less of it's total capacity is used. You can't think about it in terms of single laps, you have to look at it in terms of a race stint.
I didn't know that battery efficiency varied with level of charge. Are they big differences? I guess that would mean teams create the largest capacity possible within the weight regs and just use the bottom bit of its range?

I was only thinking of single laps since I believe it is in qualifying that the 4 mJ full to empty limit is used most. I imagine that in the race even when in overtake mode they wouldn't want to completely deplete the ES during a lap.
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I say that the MGU-H can in some instances harvest at the full 120kW meaning the ES doesn't even get used. There's 1240kW available at max fuel flow rate ~500 kW is used by the crank that leaves ~700 kW, of which ~300kW is dissipated as pumping losses, friction, and inertia + driving the turbine. That leaves about ~400kW of recoverable heat energy. If Mercedes is to be believed then with a 95% efficiency of recovery, there should easily be at least ~150kW to potentially harvest if you design a good enough MGU-H.
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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henry wrote:
godlameroso wrote:I think a great deal of MGU-H harvesting is done during WOT between gears 5-8, but most of that goes to the K directly.

Also my point about having an ES that can store more than 4MJ is that even though you can only use 4MJ per lap, and your state of charge is limited to 4MJ min and max, you forget that a battery is much more efficient during charge and discharge when less of it's total capacity is used. You can't think about it in terms of single laps, you have to look at it in terms of a race stint.
I didn't know that battery efficiency varied with level of charge. Are they big differences? I guess that would mean teams create the largest capacity possible within the weight regs and just use the bottom bit of its range?

I was only thinking of single laps since I believe it is in qualifying that the 4 mJ full to empty limit is used most. I imagine that in the race even when in overtake mode they wouldn't want to completely deplete the ES during a lap.
It's true, even with your car battery, and even more so with lithium ion batteries. If you look at the Tesla, there's a big difference between total battery capacity, and it's state of charge, the manufacturer even specifically tells you not to drain the car battery completely or you risk "bricking" the pack.
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gruntguru
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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henry wrote:There are two ways of deploying the ES.

It can be used to drive the MGU-K to supplement energy from the MGU-H in self sustain mode. The power out is ICE power plus 120 kW. The ES drain power is 120 minus whatever the MGU-H is generating. It is this drain power that is limited to 4 mJ per lap.

So for the 42 kW MGU-H this can be sustained for 51 seconds.

The other way is when the wastegate is open and the ES drives both the MGUs. The power out is EnhancedICE plus the 120 kW the ES drain power is 120 plus whatever is needed to drive the compressor.

If the compressor power is 80 kW that makes 200 kW drain. The length of time this can be sustained is down to the overall charge level up to the maximum of 33 seconds for the flow to the MGU-K. So if you can find 3 mJ you can run this mode for 33 seconds. This would allow a full laps worth of WOT at Monaco but would leave you over 40 seconds of WOT short at Spa. In fact at Spa with MGU-H at 42 kW you'd still be 20 seconds short of running the MGU-K at 120 kW in Self sustain mode. About 67 kW is needed for that.

At other tracks there is a trickier balancing act, running early parts of WOT with the wastegate open and later in SS mode with ES assist.
For a qualifying lap (no fuel saving required) it would be very easy to reach the 2 MJ limit of harvesting from the MGUK. Even if regen' braking only generates a total of 1 MJ, the ICE can be run in "genset" mode any time the rear wheels need less than the full output of the crankshaft.

With "balls-out mode" requiring 200+ kW of electrical power from the ES, 66 seconds of WOT would require 13.2 MJ from the ES. It is advantageous to run the highest boost possible (within the limits of efficient combustion) since increasing the pressure differential across the ICE increases the "negative pumping work" ie using the ICE as an "air-motor".

The other limit is - the 4 MJ ES can only run "balls-out mode" for 20 seconds before needing a recharge. (That should be sufficient for the longest straight at most circuits?)

Back to the 13.2 MJ target. 2 MJ can come from the K during the lap. A pre-charged ES gives you another 4 MJ leaving 7.2 to be harvested from the H - and not at WOT. I don't think this target is achievable but it does point to the need to have a part load mode which charges the ES primarily from the H. A few techniques that could be used to increase power to the H (all at part load):
- retard ign timing. Reduces work done on the pistons and increases pressure and temperature at EO (exh valve opening)
- cylinder skipping. Increases intensity of pulsation in the exhaust. (bigger "bangs" and longer pauses between bangs)
- exhaust manifold combustion. (Skip ignition only - allowing raw mixture into the exhaust)
- upstream throttling. (unloads compressor, freeing-up turbine power to be accessed by the H)
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henry
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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gruntguru wrote:
henry wrote:There are two ways of deploying the ES.

It can be used to drive the MGU-K to supplement energy from the MGU-H in self sustain mode. The power out is ICE power plus 120 kW. The ES drain power is 120 minus whatever the MGU-H is generating. It is this drain power that is limited to 4 mJ per lap.

So for the 42 kW MGU-H this can be sustained for 51 seconds.

The other way is when the wastegate is open and the ES drives both the MGUs. The power out is EnhancedICE plus the 120 kW the ES drain power is 120 plus whatever is needed to drive the compressor.

If the compressor power is 80 kW that makes 200 kW drain. The length of time this can be sustained is down to the overall charge level up to the maximum of 33 seconds for the flow to the MGU-K. So if you can find 3 mJ you can run this mode for 33 seconds. This would allow a full laps worth of WOT at Monaco but would leave you over 40 seconds of WOT short at Spa. In fact at Spa with MGU-H at 42 kW you'd still be 20 seconds short of running the MGU-K at 120 kW in Self sustain mode. About 67 kW is needed for that.

At other tracks there is a trickier balancing act, running early parts of WOT with the wastegate open and later in SS mode with ES assist.
For a qualifying lap (no fuel saving required) it would be very easy to reach the 2 MJ limit of harvesting from the MGUK. Even if regen' braking only generates a total of 1 MJ, the ICE can be run in "genset" mode any time the rear wheels need less than the full output of the crankshaft.

With "balls-out mode" requiring 200+ kW of electrical power from the ES, 66 seconds of WOT would require 13.2 MJ from the ES. It is advantageous to run the highest boost possible (within the limits of efficient combustion) since increasing the pressure differential across the ICE increases the "negative pumping work" ie using the ICE as an "air-motor".

The other limit is - the 4 MJ ES can only run "balls-out mode" for 20 seconds before needing a recharge. (That should be sufficient for the longest straight at most circuits?)

Back to the 13.2 MJ target. 2 MJ can come from the K during the lap. A pre-charged ES gives you another 4 MJ leaving 7.2 to be harvested from the H - and not at WOT. I don't think this target is achievable but it does point to the need to have a part load mode which charges the ES primarily from the H. A few techniques that could be used to increase power to the H (all at part load):
- retard ign timing. Reduces work done on the pistons and increases pressure and temperature at EO (exh valve opening)
- cylinder skipping. Increases intensity of pulsation in the exhaust. (bigger "bangs" and longer pauses between bangs)
- exhaust manifold combustion. (Skip ignition only - allowing raw mixture into the exhaust)
- upstream throttling. (unloads compressor, freeing-up turbine power to be accessed by the H)
So far I have "analysed" 9 circuits. Part throttle time varies from 9 seconds (Monza), to 33 (Singapore) , with an average of 20. That's a max theoretical recovery in " genset" of, 1.08 , 3.96, and 2.4 mJ respectively. So not close to recovering enough to run "balls out" for a lap. Except for Monaco that is.

Looking at your strategies for increasing turbine power the looks to be plenty of options for the creating the "rough"sounds we heard from Honda under part throttle.

In "balls out" mode it would be useful if the turbine could make some contribution to driving the compressor. Is it possible that the wastegate could be positioned to allow the turbine to capture kinetic energy whilst venting the pressure? I'm sure I've seen pictures of the Renault and Honda wastegates emerging from the volume of the turbine.

Edit: once again I trip myself up. Once the 2 mJ limit for MGU-K to ES is used up we are left with just MGU-H in part throttle operation to charge the ES. Assuming the this energy recovery is proportional to fuel flow rate I estimated recoveries of 0 ( Monza ) to 0.5 ( Singapore) , there might be a little more since in "genset " mode the fuel flow would be higher.
Last edited by henry on 15 Feb 2016, 11:44, edited 1 time in total.
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OO7
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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Well folks, it appears we now have a new technical, engineering term for one of the PU setting, 'balls-out mode'.

gruntguru
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Re: Horsepower of the engines.

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henry wrote:In "balls out" mode it would be useful if the turbine could make some contribution to driving the compressor. Is it possible that the wastegate could be positioned to allow the turbine to capture kinetic energy whilst venting the pressure? I'm sure I've seen pictures of the Renault and Honda wastegates emerging from the volume of the turbine.
I did speculate in another thread that some turbine power might be possible with the WG wide open and zero backpressure. The mechanism for this would be capture of blowdown energy if the pulses could be "aimed" at the turbine inlet even though much of the flow is exiting via the WG. Any power thus generated by the turbine would at least offset the electrical power being used to drive the compressor.
Edit: once again I trip myself up. Once the 2 mJ limit for MGU-K to ES is used up we are left with just MGU-H in part throttle operation to charge the ES. Assuming the this energy recovery is proportional to fuel flow rate I estimated recoveries of 0 ( Monza ) to 0.5 ( Singapore) , there might be a little more since in "genset " mode the fuel flow would be higher.
The comments in my previous post were all relevant to qualifying laps only - where fuel usage is unlimited (within the 100 kg/hr flow rate of course.)
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