Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Mansell89
12
Joined: 22 Feb 2015, 19:21

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Thunders wrote:This is interesting:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 79894.html

While much of these Data are smoke and mirrors only one Team claims a 22% increase in Power Output. AMuS suspects it is McLaren. But for me it could also be Toro Rosso, switching from 2015 Ferrari to a 2017 Renault.
Would make more sense with the Toro Rosso theory. They've constantly harped on about the engine difference in recent weeks and remember that Red Bull and Renault are very much rebuilding some singed, if not burnt, bridges.

So they are more likely to shout from the roof tops.

I personally think McLaren will stay very quiet and give little away. I hope they pleasantly surprise in winter testing/Australia but we will see. They've got the potential to grow into that performance gap, especially if they can master the Merc engine layout and get close to their performance. But there must be lots of intricacies other than the layout, well beyond my capability!

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kaepernickus
6
Joined: 28 Nov 2012, 11:14
Location: Austria

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Thunders wrote:This is interesting:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 79894.html

While much of these Data are smoke and mirrors only one Team claims a 22% increase in Power Output. AMuS suspects it is McLaren. But for me it could also be Toro Rosso, switching from 2015 Ferrari to a 2017 Renault.
This is based on data from the end of the 2015 season. So McH is the best guess.

hemichromis
14
Joined: 17 Nov 2015, 15:00

Re: Honda Power Unit

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So Mercedes supplies 4 teams so they must be the 15%
McLaren is the only one with a unique engine so should be the 22%
Ferrari supply 3, as do Renault.
Two complications: sauber and toro rosso.
So the 10% and 15% must be split between the remaining

-wkst-
6
Joined: 29 Jan 2016, 21:55

Re: Honda Power Unit

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It's logical, if the story is true, that it's McLaren or Manor. STR had a Renault engine in 2015 and must have the same developement rate as RBR, as both had Renault engine in 2015 and will have in 2017. But they are only speaking about 1 team.

Manor had 2014 Ferrari engine in 2015 and 2017 Mercedes.

zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:Most brands are good brands. F1 teams would be scrambling to change fuel partners if the differences were big. How many here by Petronas lubricant? Never even seen it on the shelf.
I've always been sceptical of big differences between them too. I imagine in the contract there is some kind of agreement with the team to make 3-4 PR announcements per season about magical new fuel or oil.

Joseki
28
Joined: 09 Oct 2015, 19:30

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Final 2015 spec Honda PU max power output: 820 hp + 22% power increase = 1000 hp.

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loner
16
Joined: 26 Feb 2016, 18:34

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Mansell89 wrote:
Thunders wrote:This is interesting:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 79894.html

While much of these Data are smoke and mirrors only one Team claims a 22% increase in Power Output. AMuS suspects it is McLaren. But for me it could also be Toro Rosso, switching from 2015 Ferrari to a 2017 Renault.
Would make more sense with the Toro Rosso theory. They've constantly harped on about the engine difference in recent weeks and remember that Red Bull and Renault are very much rebuilding some singed, if not burnt, bridges.

So they are more likely to shout from the roof tops.

I personally think McLaren will stay very quiet and give little away. I hope they pleasantly surprise in winter testing/Australia but we will see. They've got the potential to grow into that performance gap, especially if they can master the Merc engine layout and get close to their performance. But there must be lots of intricacies other than the layout, well beyond my capability!
but didn't Hasegawa already said they can match Mercedes out put in 2017 but they fear reliability
para bellum.

tom101
-6
Joined: 25 Feb 2016, 23:44

Re: Honda Power Unit

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increase of near 200 hp in two years,
electric + thermal engine power seems posible to me

don't forget honda was the only team that rejected to suppress mgu-H at the beginning of the season. They must have some secrets

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PlatinumZealot
550
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Joseki wrote:Final 2015 spec Honda PU max power output: 820 hp + 22% power increase = 1000 hp.
50 thermal efficiency might just be the reasonable limit. Even Wartsilla engines aren't above that. I think 47% is 790hp ICE so 50% would take you to 840 ICE pluse 160 MGUK = 1000 hp exactly. Not a big improvement as expect and this is why Sauber did not see a big advantage in taking a 2017 Ferrari engine.
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loner
16
Joined: 26 Feb 2016, 18:34

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Mclaren also said other teams will hit the ceiling sure they have their calculations
para bellum.

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Craigy
84
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 10:20

Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:50 thermal efficiency might just be the reasonable limit. Even Wartsilla engines aren't above that. ...
Wärtsilä already claim "over 54%" on some of their systems for things like power production, in their marketing materials, but it's moot as the demands are quite different and so are the treatments used to get to that sort of result.

Edited to correct a typo.
Last edited by Craigy on 28 Oct 2016, 09:15, edited 1 time in total.

gruntguru
563
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:50 thermal efficiency might just be the reasonable limit. Even Wartsilla engines aren't above that. I think 47% is 790hp ICE so 50% would take you to 840 ICE pluse 160 MGUK = 1000 hp exactly. Not a big improvement as expect and this is why Sauber did not see a big advantage in taking a 2017 Ferrari engine.
As mentioned by Craigy, Wartsila and B&W are above 50% without compounding. I believe MB are well above 50% TE.

Your assessment of TE is in error. The total output for calculating TE should include any MGUK power provided direct from the MGUH (but not from the ES). Put the PU in a box with flat batteries - feed it fuel @ 100 kg/hr and measure the mechanical power coming out. 900hp = 53.5% TE (using the same fuel HV as you).
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PlatinumZealot
550
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Craigy wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:50 thermal efficiency might just be the reasonable limit. Even Wartsilla engines aren't above that. ...
Wärtsilä already claim "over 54%" on some of their systems for things like power production, in their marketing materials, but it's moot as the demands are quite different and so are the treatments used to get to that sort of result.

Edited to correct a typo.
Yes and they say that 50% is the guaranteed.
But anyway Formula 1 always push things to the edge... so you have a good point.

These engines can be compounded? I know that can run on combine cycle..
Last edited by PlatinumZealot on 28 Oct 2016, 15:48, edited 1 time in total.
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PlatinumZealot
550
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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gruntguru wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:50 thermal efficiency might just be the reasonable limit. Even Wartsilla engines aren't above that. I think 47% is 790hp ICE so 50% would take you to 840 ICE pluse 160 MGUK = 1000 hp exactly. Not a big improvement as expect and this is why Sauber did not see a big advantage in taking a 2017 Ferrari engine.
As mentioned by Craigy, Wartsila and B&W are above 50% without compounding. I believe MB are well above 50% TE.

Your assessment of TE is in error. The total output for calculating TE should include any MGUK power provided direct from the MGUH (but not from the ES). Put the PU in a box with flat batteries - feed it fuel @ 100 kg/hr and measure the mechanical power coming out. 900hp = 53.5% TE (using the same fuel HV as you).
I may have overestimated the Battery addition then (there is a power limit to the MGUK after all) but when I said ICE I really meant the Engine and MUGH plus MGUK.. (I still consider it as the "engine').

But to do it from scratch...
Assuming LHV is 44 MJ/kg @ 100kg/hr x 50%... Horsepower without EStore is = 44,000kJ/kg x 100/3600kg/s x 50% / 0.746kW/hp = 819bhp @ 50% TE.

Or 868hp @ 53% TE


I have no idea what exact contribution is from ICE and what is from MGUH as this is an umbrella figure and hence I don't know how much of the 160 hp MGUK limit the MGUH is already contributing. In this case the Energy store can only give less than 160hp. So that is why I will back pedal on the addition of the 160hp from energy store on top of this.
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wuzak
434
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Craigy wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:These engines can be compounded? I know that can run on combine cycle..
Yes, they are turbo-compound engines. This has been part of the discussion for 3 or so years.

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