Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PlatinumZealot]

Can we gat back to the Honda Power unit? All these arguments belong in the General engine thread. Where are the mods?

[godlameroso]

We're chewing on the 11.5cm pedal travel, I don't know what you're protesting about.

[hurril]

More pictures of it please

[gruntguru]

Does anyone think some of the 115mm pedal travel is used for other than power modulation? For example the lowest 20mm could be a region of re-gen braking. The highest 20mm could be a region of additional power with heavy use of ES energy (eg qualy mode)

Possibly, it would be a challenge to do that and comply with the rules but these people are far smarter and more clever than myself.

5.5.3 At any given engine speed the driver torque demand map must be monotonically increasing for an increase in accelerator pedal position.
5.5.4 At any given accelerator pedal position and above 4,000rpm, the driver torque demand map must not have a gradient of less than – (minus) 0.045Nm/rpm.

Those rules don't say the torque decrease cannot extend into negative territory.

[PlatinumZealot]

Problem is, with that is all the g-forces and the "stabs" of the brake/throttle the driver has to do in some corners isn't it is asking for trouble to embed those sorts of controls into the pedal travel? A push button or toggle switch would be less cumbersome and more straight forward IMO.

[harjan]

Button mentioned 11 cm of pedal already before 2014 when he was discussing the immense torque these engines produce. So it's all about throttle modulation/control. Wazari probably mentioned this because someone else said that a driver is always 100% on the throttle or the brake pedal. While in fact they spend quite some time on partial throttle, hence the travel.

But if Wazari states that McLaren-Honda's main issue is fuel efficiency and not outright power- then McLaren should also owe up to the fact that their chassis is lacking immensely (which places as Hungary & Singapore also showed more or less). Because in qualifying where fuel efficiency is no issue, they're lacking far more than the laptime you miss from 60-70 bhp less.

[godlameroso]

The Honda PU didn't have a q3 mode.

[Craigy]

But if Wazari states that McLaren-Honda's main issue is fuel efficiency and not outright power- then McLaren should also owe up to the fact that their chassis is lacking immensely (which places as Hungary & Singapore also showed more or less). Because in qualifying where fuel efficiency is no issue, they're lacking far more than the laptime you miss from 60-70 bhp less.

If the Honda is down on power and efficiency, then consequently McLaren have to run the car with less drag and consequently less downforce than they'd like to for grip. They have to chase developments within a certain lift/drag profile.
Downforce = Drag. Drag = requirement for power = fuel usage.
The teams aren't allowed to change the aero between quali and the race, so it's not like McLaren could have high downforce settings for quali and lower them for the race to make the fuel limit in the race.

[Tommy Cookers]

Problem is, with that is all the g-forces and the "stabs" of the brake/throttle the driver has to do in some corners isn't it is asking for trouble to embed those sorts of controls into the pedal travel? A push button or toggle switch would be less cumbersome and more straight forward IMO.

maybe there's a helpful force 'feedback' generated by the accelerator pedal mechanism ?

[godlameroso]

That's against the rules,

5.5.2 Designs which allow specific points along the accelerator pedal travel range to be identified by the driver or assist him to hold a position are not permitted.

I have seen a color changing screen on the HUD when they're trying to find the clutch bite point. So maybe something along those lines.

[mrluke]

Button mentioned 11 cm of pedal already before 2014 when he was discussing the immense torque these engines produce. So it's all about throttle modulation/control. Wazari probably mentioned this because someone else said that a driver is always 100% on the throttle or the brake pedal. While in fact they spend quite some time on partial throttle, hence the travel.

But if Wazari states that McLaren-Honda's main issue is fuel efficiency and not outright power- then McLaren should also owe up to the fact that their chassis is lacking immensely (which places as Hungary & Singapore also showed more or less). Because in qualifying where fuel efficiency is no issue, they're lacking far more than the laptime you miss from 60-70 bhp less.

ding ding ding!! We have a winner.

Mclaren used to have the Mercedes PU, but they were still some way behind Mercedes.

Their chassis has not improved, relative to Mercedes, by as much as they would like us all to believe.

There is a whole thread that clearly demonstrates Mclaren's most competitive qualifying sessions this year were at "power" tracks and their worst have been at "chassis" tracks.

[godlameroso]

I don't think you can say it's one element of the car that lacks performance, even the factory Renault cars had an advantage on the Honda power units. One thing was clear, Ferrari, Red Bull, and Mercedes were all in a class of their own, and McLaren on certain tracks was the fastest of the rest. They've been clawing their way up the field, now both chassis and power unit have a chance to take a big step forward.

[Wazari]

If the Honda is down on power and efficiency, then consequently McLaren have to run the car with less drag and consequently less downforce than they'd like to for grip. They have to chase developments within a certain lift/drag profile.
Downforce = Drag. Drag = requirement for power = fuel usage.
The teams aren't allowed to change the aero between quali and the race, so it's not like McLaren could have high downforce settings for quali and lower them for the race to make the fuel limit in the race.

As I mentioned in the hardware section, the MP4-31 was not a low DF chassis compared to others and definitely not run with "less drag". I just want to clear that misconception. A much higher DF was run than anticipated due to unforeseen circumstances throughout the season.
While I agree somewhat in your equation; DF contributes to drag, but is only one of many factors that go into the drag coefficient of the car. Were there other teams with a higher drag coefficient chassis than McLaren?
Sorry mods, this is probably the wrong section for this post.

[PlatinumZealot]

The Honda PU didn't have a q3 mode.

Yes it did further in the season. But it was not as strong as the other teams. I suppose it was confirmed by sound measurements. But an italian website had posted that they did. In QMode they are just over 910hp. You don't simply beat williams in quaifying without that Qmode.

[RedNEO]

I don't think you can say it's one element of the car that lacks performance, even the factory Renault cars had an advantage on the Honda power units. One thing was clear, Ferrari, Red Bull, and Mercedes were all in a class of their own, and McLaren on certain tracks was the fastest of the rest. They've been clawing their way up the field, now both chassis and power unit have a chance to take a big step forward.

Im in two minds. It would be more satisfying to see Alonso get his third with mclaren as it should've been. But if they can't be super confident they have a good car for him in 2017 then that Mercedes seat starts to look a bit tempting as he has already waited so long. Can McLaren Honda finally get it together? I hope so..