Idea for V6 turbo configuration

[izybluffen]

Interesting pictures and ideas but no-one is really putting any emphasis on the "compounding" part of the 2014 turbo setup to coincide with the rules.

There needs to be room for the gearbox from the drive of the turbine wheel to the crankshaft. A turbo compressor/turbine can spin up to 250,000 rpm so there needs to be a gearbox/clutch to gear the turbo rpm down to crankshaft rpm otherwise the crank would stop the turbo from spooling up and breaking the boost threshold considering the motor rpm limit is set at 12,000 rpm for 2014.


This is a truck compound setup and I dont think they will run with a 2 turbine setup, they will still probably compact it into 1 unit to save weight.

I think they will hang the turbo and gearbox at the the rear of the motor to connect with the crank at the rear, and dont forget the electric motor for the pitlane and KERS. So they might use the same DC motor for both and connect to the front of the crank or they could compact it all at the rear as it says in the rules.

Either way the compound effect can save around 10% in fuel efficiency and give around an extra 50hp for free over a standard turbo setup.

[neilbah]

Interesting pictures and ideas but no-one is really putting any emphasis on the "compounding" part of the 2014 turbo setup to coincide with the rules.

There needs to be room for the gearbox from the drive of the turbine wheel to the crankshaft. A turbo compressor/turbine can spin up to 250,000 rpm so there needs to be a gearbox/clutch to gear the turbo rpm down to crankshaft rpm otherwise the crank would stop the turbo from spooling up and breaking the boost threshold considering the motor rpm limit is set at 12,000 rpm for 2014.


This is a truck compound setup and I dont think they will run with a 2 turbine setup, they will still probably compact it into 1 unit to save weight.

I think they will hang the turbo and gearbox at the the rear of the motor to connect with the crank at the rear, and dont forget the electric motor for the pitlane and KERS. So they might use the same DC motor for both and connect to the front of the crank or they could compact it all at the rear as it says in the rules.

Either way the compound effect can save around 10% in fuel efficiency and give around an extra 50hp for free over a standard turbo setup.

Some ideas about hybrid/electro/geared/thermo coupled turbos have been raised in the 2014 turbo engine thread, comparisons have been made with the old aircraft engines where it seems compound charging was created, this isnt different to the idea of the shaft running thru the block and having the energy regenerative systems attached to the shaft somehow, its just the packaging as you say, there will no doubt be some clever enterpretations and fitment.

[Vale46]

Hey Guys, i got some ideas for the Turbo lay out.
I wonder what you guys think about it

My first idea is going about the placement of electric motor that support the turbocharger. I really liked the idea of a split turbo, and in my mind it's a perfect way to fit the electric motor. I don't know there is enough space to fit?
http://i.imgur.com/TkxY6.jpg


My second idea is going about the airflow optimization of the exhaust turbo.
In this lay-out, 6 exhaust tubes have to become one to fit on the turbo. But I think it's possible to make a exhaust turbo with 2 inlet and one outlet. One intake for each cylinder bank.
Maybe it's also possible for the intake turbo?
The turbine blades are in the wrong way, my apologies!
http://i.imgur.com/438gD.jpg

What do you guys think about my ideas??

[noname]

My second idea is going about the airflow optimization of the exhaust turbo.
In this lay-out, 6 exhaust tubes have to become one to fit on the turbo. But I think it's possible to make a exhaust turbo with 2 inlet and one outlet

http://blogs.cars.com/.a/6a00d83451b3c6 ... 970b-800wi

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ ... ewall.html

[Vale46]

My second idea is going about the airflow optimization of the exhaust turbo.
In this lay-out, 6 exhaust tubes have to become one to fit on the turbo. But I think it's possible to make a exhaust turbo with 2 inlet and one outlet

http://blogs.cars.com/.a/6a00d83451b3c6 ... 970b-800wi

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ ... ewall.html

Oh, it already exists!
'll this be effective on a F1-car?

[neilbah]

The Toyota MR2 also had a form of twin entry turbo



Twin Entry - Split-Inlet Exhaust Housings known as "Twin Scroll" permit the exhaust pulses to be grouped (or separated) by cylinder all the way to the turbine. The reason for doing this in keeping the individual package of energy, an exhaust pulse, intact and undisturbed by other pulses, all the way to the turbine. This in turn can give the turbine a better kick to get it moving. This is specifically usefull in four-cylinder engines. Because a four-cylinder only sees one pulse every 180 degrees of crank rotation, it needs all the energy it can get from each pulse. Keeping them separate and undisturbed will therefore pay back some dividends. 5* (Information from "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell).


To make such a setup work as intended, you also need to have a manifold setup properly
Such a manifold would keep cylinder 1 and 4 pulses seperate from cylinder 2 and 3 pulses.
1 and 2 pulses would enter the left entry port while the 3 and 4 would enter through the right port (or vise versa)

[WhiteBlue]

BMW already use twin scroll turbos in their engine program. First use was the N55 straight six 3.0 engine in the BMW 535i Gran Turismo. Second was the BMW X1 xDrive28i with the straight four N20B20 2L engine. The N20B20 will be a front runner of a huge four pot program which is destined to replace the current straight six technology almost entirely.

For F1 twin scroll should be allowed. Multi stage is prohibited. Twin scroll is much better suited to a single turbo with two banks. So one assumes it will be generally used in the new 2014 units.

[n smikle]

I had a few twin scroll turbos I got off some old trucks.. works well for quicker spooling.

As for axial flow compressors there are a few weaknesses of the axial flow compressors.

It has piss poor response time. It is not good for transient response. This is the main reason why radial turbos are used in car engines.

It only really works well with more than one stage. Usually at least three or 4 stages.

It has a narrow operating band. It can easily stall or surge either side of this band.

The shape requires many, separate blades. Expensive to manufacture.

[WhiteBlue]

The shape requires many, separate blades. Expensive to manufacture.

Not any more. The advanced manufacturers of small axial turbines do the whole wheel out of one solid piece with 5-axis cutting.

[allstaruk08]

omg have you seen 5-axis cutting machine cutting a turbine it looks amazing i could watch it all day lol yeah theres very precise machinary out there today to cut a turbine out on one piece

[flynfrog]

The shape requires many, separate blades. Expensive to manufacture.

Not any more. The advanced manufacturers of small axial turbines do the whole wheel out of one solid piece with 5-axis cutting.

that is still the most expensive part of the engine.

[noname]

Not any more. The advanced manufacturers of small axial turbines do the whole wheel out of one solid piece with 5-axis cutting.

You can have fully machined turbine wheel but, to my knowledge, the process is being used mainly to make TiAL wheels (or lower temp. applications). And ceramic materials are banned (except stuff like bearings).

Materials used for high temp wheels (they will, I think, work above 1000degC) exist only as casting. They are machined (contour, back side, etc.), but they are not made from the billet. However wax patterns are made on 5 axis CNCs.

Compressor wheels, on the other hand, are fully machined.

[WhiteBlue]

I think that engineers will have a good hard look at axial if they can get 10% more efficiency out of them. It should be a double digit horse power figure. No knowing if the problems can be solved or if a radial turbine is the better solution in the end. I guess we will have to wait and see. It is pretty obvious though that multi stage and variable geometry are options that can be explored in the future to improve efficiency.

[neilbah]

ok to settle the argument we'll use a mixed-flow compressor or 'diagonal flow' one which is a combination of the axial and radial compressors

[WhiteBlue]

Could you provide a drawing of the geometry you suggested?