2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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FW17, I suggest you have a closer look... the Yamaha patent also includes provision for twin injectors,
which is current practice in 2T DI snowmobile usage, & I note also, that it is 4T engines that compete against
them which require the added cost/complexity of turbocharging to provide the needed boost in power output.

There are no current turbocharged production roadbikes since they do not have to compete with 2Ts..
& as for sports competition, 2Ts are either outright banned, or must be significantly restricted in capacity.

As for your opinions regarding N/A engines being "irrelevant", you might like to check the findings of emissions
research, which when done in 'real world' on road testing finds the harder worked small capacity turbocharged
engines to be worse offenders...

A situation which may well spell their demise - under changes mooted to ensure emissions reg's reflect actual
driving outputs - rather than laboratory test - procedures..
Several European cities are currently flagging a ban on entry to vehicles that cannot meet these requirements.
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:No N/A G.P. 4T engine has come near the ~440 hp/Ltr that the (sadly now banned) final 125cc 2T bikes produced,
& in a tractable, reliable form, even though limited to only a single cylinder & a mere 6-speeds in the gearbox..
part of the reason for this is that F1 rules have for 40+ years demanded a far bigger cylinder size eg 300cc
and at or near this cylinder size (ie the motorcycle GP 500cc twins) the 2 stroke has shown itself unable to match the 4 stroke bhp/litre
because of course the port size is smaller (relatively) in the bigger cylinder, and in the 2 stroke this is not relievable by increased bore:stroke ratio
so we might consider eg what the late NA F1 engine bhp/litre would have been like if 125cc cylinders were used compared to the 300cc

'my' rule re destroking an engine is that rpm is raisable (maintaining original stress/acceleration) in inverse proportion to the square root of stroke
but raising rpm (maintaining original piston speed) in inverse proportion to stroke intolerably increases stress/accel and greatly reduces fatigue life

reducing the engine's cylinders to 125cc but maintaining the geometry of bore:stroke ratio etc appears to be a different and easier target
the rod will be lighter than scale, the piston might be, though the wrist pin area may be heavier
so rpm can increase by more than the square root ie somewhat greater piston etc accelerations might obtain without increased stress at critical points
as the relative valve sizes are increased and the piston speed is reduced, both the pumping losses and friction are reduced

if the 125cc cylinder engine could run at the 300cc cylinder piston speed (ie 34% more rpm) this might seem to help it meet the 440 hp/litre target ....
but the 125cc cylinder engine's total combustion chamber etc areas will be about 34% greater than the 300cc cylinder engine's
so the energy loss to coolant will be similarly greater
(and the total piston friction area will be 34% greater, so the piston friction will be greater)

these disproportionate losses will ensure that the NA 4 stroke will not reach 440 bhp/litre even with such tiny cylinders
but the NA 2 stroke won't either unless it has lots of tiny cylinders eg 125cc or smaller
it looks as if the F1 rulemaking wasn't so bad after all

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Bear in mind T-C, that prior to the effective 125cc G.P. class rule limits ( single, twin @ 250cc, 4 @ 500cc)...
Honda did compete against 2T 250cc V4's with 6 cylinder 250cc 4Ts.. (& even a 5 cylinder 125!)

But AFAIR, the only 500cc twin to win the World Championship - 4T , or 2T, was very 1st, by AJS in `49...

Honda withdrew from factory G.P. racing - when even these costly exercises were being out done by 2Ts.
Honda did try again ~ten years later with the NR 500 4T, but to no avail, & were forced to race 2Ts to win.

Of course, what cannot be achieved by technical means in a sports code can be done by the rule book,
so 4Ts were marched back into the 500c G.P. race by dint of renaming it Moto GP, & with litre capacity engines,
( prior to all 2Ts then progressively being banned) too)..

Another factor to note re G.P. bike VS G.P car engine characteristics is that the bike mill must retain much
more progressive ( rider usable) throttle control, whereas car engines are tuned harder - for a fierce
power delivery, & this was born out most recently by the Aprilia 'Cube' Moto G.P. bike - which as a 'chip off
the block' of an F1 design with 3 X 330cc F1 cylinders, it proved very fast in a straight line, but virtually
unrideable in part throttle/cornering transitions..

Even at very high specific outputs, the 2T G.P. engines, with their inherent low inertia, proved to be
rideable, while sans much in the way of ECU attitude control, & yet with a power spread wide enough
so that having a mere 6 gears in the box - was not crippling..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

User avatar
FW17
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

J.A.W. wrote:FW17, I suggest you have a closer look... the Yamaha patent also includes provision for twin injectors,
which is current practice in 2T DI snowmobile usage, & I note also, that it is 4T engines that compete against
them which require the added cost/complexity of turbocharging to provide the needed boost in power output.

There are no current turbocharged production roadbikes since they do not have to compete with 2Ts..
& as for sports competition, 2Ts are either outright banned, or must be significantly restricted in capacity.

As for your opinions regarding N/A engines being "irrelevant", you might like to check the findings of emissions
research, which when done in 'real world' on road testing finds the harder worked small capacity turbocharged
engines to be worse offenders...

A situation which may well spell their demise - under changes mooted to ensure emissions reg's reflect actual
driving outputs - rather than laboratory test - procedures..
Several European cities are currently flagging a ban on entry to vehicles that cannot meet these requirements.
Are you saying the efficiency of a turbo engine can be achieved by a NA?

Emissions- are there carbon oxides nitrogen oxides? Aren't there emissions systems in the market available to limit those?

Why mix engine efficiency to that of emission control systems?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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"Mix"?

FW17, for road legality it is not a matter of "mix" - either the machine meets the requirements or it does not...

As to the matter of efficiency, does a much more complex/parts intensive/maintenance needy machine really qualify?

Not on a cost-benefit level...

Do try the "Pespsi Challenge" I put to Muniix earlier - & make a business case for a 4T professional chainsaw,
one which utilizes a turbo, dry-sump with multiple oil pump pick-ups & Ti-construction for needful weight/heft.

Show Honda how it can be done, & get rich from the royalties..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

User avatar
FW17
168
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:"Mix"?

FW17, for road legality it is not a matter of "mix" - either the machine meets the requirements or it does not...

As to the matter of efficiency, does a much more complex/parts intensive/maintenance needy machine really qualify?

Not on a cost-benefit level...

Do try the "Pespsi Challenge" I put to Muniix earlier - & make a business case for a 4T professional chainsaw,
one which utilizes a turbo, dry-sump with multiple oil pump pick-ups & Ti-construction for needful weight/heft.

Show Honda how it can be done, & get rich from the royalties..
My argument is simple

What ever 4T does, a 2T can do better in a less complex way with fewer moving parts.

Frank_
Frank_
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Joined: 29 Jun 2014, 11:59

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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most of the landscape gardeners i encounter have moved over to the stihl 4T hedgetrimmers/leafblowers/strimmers etc now, albeit 50:1 premix still

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Yeah, Honda does 4T versions of such low-stress garden appliance devices, but not a hard use chainsaw..
( Stihl & others have made light duty 4T saws, but the professional units are 2T)...
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
621
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
J.A.W. wrote:No N/A G.P. 4T engine has come near the ~440 hp/Ltr that the (sadly now banned) final 125cc 2T bikes produced,
& in a tractable, reliable form, even though limited to only a single cylinder & a mere 6-speeds in the gearbox..
part of the reason for this is that F1 rules have for 40+ years demanded a far bigger cylinder size eg 300cc
we might consider eg what the late NA F1 engine bhp/litre would have been like if 125cc cylinders were used compared to the 300cc
IF the 125cc cylinder engine could run at the 300cc cylinder piston speed (ie 34% more rpm) this might seem to help it meet the 440 hp/litre target ....
but the 125cc cylinder engine's total combustion chamber etc areas will be about 34% greater than the 300cc cylinder engine's
so the energy loss to coolant will be similarly greater (and the total piston friction area will be 34% greater)
these disproportionate losses will ensure that the NA 4 stroke will not reach 440 bhp/litre even with such tiny cylinders
but the NA 2 stroke won't either unless it has lots of tiny cylinders eg 125cc or smaller
it looks as if the F1 rulemaking wasn't so bad after all
since J.A.W mentions them ..... the 1960s GP race motorcycles are worth a thought ......
(remember, V8 NA F1 had 300cc cylinders ie 98 bore and 39.8 stroke (or close) ie an unprecedented bore:stroke ratio of 2.46)

the Honda RC174 4 stroke 297cc 6 cyl was (typically for Honda) 41 bore x 37.5 stroke and gave eg 65+ bhp @ 17000 rpm
ie the entire engine's combustion chamber etc area was about the same as that of one of F1's cylinders
but the entire engine's piston frictional area was about three times that of one of F1's cylinders
Honda chose plenty of cylinders and a conservative b:s ratio as something that would work from day 1 (rather than raising the b:s ratio)
F1 later changed to an unprecedented engine rule stability and cylinder size restriction which started to force increased b:s ratio

the 250cc 2 stroke Yamahas and Suzukis had to go to 4 cylinders attempting to beat the 250cc 6 cylinder Honda
Suzuki dominated the 50cc class with a twin (14 gears), then started on the RP68 L-shaped 3 cylinder 50cc
Suzuki (12 gears) and Yamaha used 4 cylinder 125cc machines, these people clearly believed in small 2 stroke cylinders

btw the early (1983-5) Honda F1 1.5 litre turbocharged RA163 is believed to have been 90 bore x 39.2 stroke (basically a destroked F2 engine)
suggesting a GP 500 with 4 conventional cylinders (5/6 valves, twin plug) about 72 x 31, instead of the 1979 NR500 8 rod/4 'oval' piston engine
btw 2 the NR 500 should according to 'crossplane Yamaha' theory have had good controllability, but throttling up it remained poor
(throttling down it was so bad the 'slipper' clutch had to be invented)

Muniix
Muniix
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:
Muniix wrote:
Here the logging crews are experimenting with a truck fitted with solar arrays charging high density standardised battery packs and that proved really successfull with the high reliability of the units and plenty of electrical power for the crews personal use. That was for a more mixed use, some liquid fuelled some electric, and they were learning what to use when. The improved reliability was what stood out in the electric tools favour. With fast swap packs.

America has run out of pu-238 for their RTG's they have even bought as much as they can from Russia, they need to produce some more but they don't have the infrastructure to do so anymore, especially since they canned the thorium reactor project at Oak Ridge which could produce it very effectively as it is a majority of its waste products.

The future for ICE and liquid power is being pressured at both ends, solutions need to be found that have high efficiency/low consumption and low oxides of nitrogen , unburned hydrocarbons, co and co2 emissions in that order i would guess. Anything less than 50% will just not be viable.

Muniix,
- by all means post a link that cites the electric chainsaw research showing it outperforms 2T units in the field.

Forgive me if I find it difficult to accept it at face value, but given the power requirements,
weight & latent energy comparison between even the best batteries & liquid hydrocarbon fuel...

50% efficiency is only just being approached by current F1 tech at huge cost/complexity, & in disregard of
road rules emissions compliance.. ( & they are likely to change too, given research showing diesel particulates
are implicated in human brain degeneration/early onset of dementia..).

As for the US/NASA 'running out' of Pu for space probes, President Trump will get that sorted out tout suite,
- after all, what have the French done with theirs?

Maybe James Cameron can use his deep diver to recover the Pu pile which sank to the Pacific seabed,
- when Apollo 13 unexpectedly returned with theirs...
It was the torque reaction of the two stoke tools that was injuring the operators (RSI) that instigated the project of Sydney Council parks management to trial electric. The electric tools have soft start to reduce injury and power consumption. They were at my local park last week when I walked thru.

James Cameron's deep diver was developed 2-3 km's up the road from me in Balmain. It was a Nasa person who said they have recently bought as much pu-238 from russia as they have used all they have. They have plenty of pu-239.

I don't think Trump will do much at all, just too much inertia/governance in the system for presidents to make silly 'changes' except go to war. Remember the illiterate Bush jr. couldn't read or write at an adult level. Trump is technically illiterate can't even use email. Thought emails were a tresure trove, no their just how people communicate in the 21st century.

Fancy cylinder liners that provide a barrier layer that doesn't thin out at high boost researched at MelbUni/SydneyUni, pushes te above 50%.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Look M, I am not going to get into the off-topic stuff here.. but again, feel free to link data citations..

& as for some 'dozy-doper' Synney park workers being relegated to old women's garden-type electric pruning saws...
...likely due to stupidity/lack of training - I'll bet they felt emasculated.. since real chainsaw makers clearly state
that electric units - cord supply /battery - (& 4Ts) - are def' not applicable to proper heavy duty forestry type use...
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Muniix
Muniix
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Investigating frictional losses, an example of losses based on the Heywood 2003 friction model study, Ricardo has a lot of information as well. Piston fritional losses ;
Image

Especially considering that curent high performance motorcycles like the YZF-R1 use about 9.4 l/100 or 30 mpg and
while motorcycles are responsible for only 1% of total vehicle kilometres travelled they are responsible for 10% of emissions.

While piston friction isn't the only contributor to fmep it is the majority. With Piston side thrust force the largest single contributor, there has been some research into lowering friction with IF-MoS2 nano particles into engine oils, and piston coatings.

It does seem like motorcycle engines and motorcycle designs are very much lacking in engineered refinement/optimisation. Aero aside they are a whole lot lighter and should be doing a lot better, 2T or 4T agnostic.

I found a research paper studying cylinder liner wear from conventional crankshafts, offset crankshafts and dual crankshaft and it showed a large drop in liner wear with the dual contra-rotating crankshaft arrangement around 60%, measures at 10 different heights and at 0,90,180,270 degrees at two different speeds with a rod/length ratio of 2.0.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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an R1 or similar machine would be a very poor application for the twin crankshaft idea
because such machines are so greatly throttled in legal public highway, eg using guesstimated 98% throttled at 30 mph and 90% at 70 mph
they are as all SI vehicles controlled essentially by throttling to create inefficiency that matches the output to the load
so reduced piston friction would generally just mean increasing the throttling to further degrade efficiency, preventing a reduction in fuel consumption

a Junkers-type opposed piston engine could with long rods use the twin crankshafts (ie combustion chamber between the cranks)
this layout would have a relatively short external gear train coupling the cranks (but was under Lanchester patents then ?)
maybe this has now been reinvented after 100+ years
Junkers actual layout used conventional cranks coupled by a very long external train of gears
fortunately for development the supercharging and output power was greatly increased without increase in the coupling gear-transmitted power

the twin crankshaft makes most sense with 1, 2, or 3 cylinders ? (though in benefitting balance it will increase main bearing loads)
or ..... ideas for a Deltic-beater, anybody ?

Muniix
Muniix
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Tommy Cookers wrote:an R1 or similar machine would be a very poor application for the twin crankshaft idea
because such machines are so greatly throttled in legal public highway, eg using guesstimated 98% throttled at 30 mph and 90% at 70 mph
they are as all SI vehicles controlled essentially by throttling to create inefficiency that matches the output to the load
so reduced piston friction would generally just mean increasing the throttling to further degrade efficiency, preventing a reduction in fuel consumption

a Junkers-type opposed piston engine could with long rods use the twin crankshafts (ie combustion chamber between the cranks)
this layout would have a relatively short external gear train coupling the cranks (but was under Lanchester patents then ?)
maybe this has now been reinvented after 100+ years
Junkers actual layout used conventional cranks coupled by a very long external train of gears
fortunately for development the supercharging and output power was greatly increased without increase in the coupling gear-transmitted power

the twin crankshaft makes most sense with 1, 2, or 3 cylinders ? (though in benefitting balance it will increase main bearing loads)
or ..... ideas for a Deltic-beater, anybody ?
I have been investigating the effects on inerta from the offset crankshafts, the effects of piston side thrust force on inertia
and the rate of change of inertia. The piston side thrust force is interrelated to piston friction in the zero offset crank, with large offsets they will not be as the opposing thrust forces cancel each other in the dual crank arrangement. The piston side thrust force and the big end motion create a couple moment normally, that couple is gone.
Looking into a single cylinder engine and how one could optomise the geometry and the effects to consider, looks like i'll be developing more code iterations to my ruby code that models piston motion, velocity, acceleration and change of rate of acceleration (thanks Manolis for your offset crank spreadsheet if your reading this, it confirmed i had an error in my velocity code, i re-wrote it too many times and ignored my failing tests, test driven development is cool), adding in the typical engine modeling of forces, to calculate friction.
Would be good to assess how the modifed piston motion effects the intake velocy, inertia and cylinder mass, pumping losses and viscous effects with surface friction. The heat added through the higher velocity compression stroke, and a 1D combustion model looking at cylinder pressure over crank angle, getting a simplified model for tji combustion would be handy, the ideal point of maximum heat release, location of peak pressure will all be a little bit different and involve a slighty different crank/rod angle giving more effective conversion of pressure to rotational torque. My code calculates two angles, theta = crank angle, phi is rod angle from cylinder axis, i'll need a name for the crank/rod angle, any suggestions ?

The versatility in lambda with the tji and its relation to the HR10 to HR90 duration presents tuning possibilities to engine load need to be explored, this will be the cylinder pressure over crank/rod angle ratio. The maximum cylinder pressure for large bore engines reduces about 4 times the mean which suits the geometry needed for dual offset crankshafts.

Calculating the friction from the major components using the latest engine models corrected for offset crankshafts, assessing the increased bearing friction, the differences with two lighter crankshafts vs one larger one, the larger crank has to deal with its own larger mass and forces, should allow the two cranks to be a litle bit lighter than would initially be thought. It might well be a very small increase in crank train bearing friction for a moderate to large reduction in piston friction depending on rpm.

Modelling the inertial torque, something makes me think it will be a little bit different than normal, given the offset and inertial force differences.

Maybe some interesting discoveries ahead, apart from the above.

The idea of a modern take on the Ducati Supermono appeals, especially one based on the Motoinno ts3 steering and suspension system. Even a ~200cc Ryger single (longer stroke for lower rpm, bigger bore for more torque) for ultimate light weight with the TS3 eliminating the mass associated with the heavy reinforcing typical needed for the steering head and no upper telescopic fork tubes giving rise to improved low turbulence intake air flow taken at a high pressure area of the bike. A really fuel efficient and clean tji ignited lpg direct injected engine with intake boost from a pressure wave supercharged, bishop rotary valve engine with dual contra-rotating crankshafts, what a mouthfull, a MutantNewton if their ever was one.
Full carbon fibre lpg pressure vessels are now a real thing, with some flexibility in geometry and not too heavy a tank holding 10-15kg of lpg should weight around 3-4kg, with good efficiency that should give over 350 kilometres.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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ok, I remind myself here that the F1 style highly boosted lean run 'TJI' type 'heat dilution' engine has a distinct drawback (maybe two) .......

the high boost means high cylinder pressures in both compression and expansion and so greater mean piston friction and greater wear
justifying reconsideration of connecting rod arrangement or length, though such (gas-fuelled) engines in production have conventional arrangements
(note to self - these engines are in heat loss terms downsized as much as conventional turbo engines)

as power control cannot be by further leaning, the fixed lean mixture is used, but with reduced air (and fuel) supply
ie partial powers involve reducing boost via generator loading of the turbo, and/or throttling before compressor or dumping gas somewhere
the 'heat dilution' of fixed lean mixture implies HUCR varies less with boost, ie at partial power the CR is less sub-optimal and efficiency is less degraded

btw our family transport in the used-car famine c.1955 (an Ariel Square 4 with sidecar) had geared crankshafts