Stripped F1 Gearbox

[autogyro]

The first semi/ auto shift gearbox in F1 was in Mansels Ferrari.

Was the system you worked on on the same theme as the C.F. Zeroshift?

So then these systems are robust enough for F1?

Brian

There are a number of ways to control shifts in a layshaft gearbox the C.F Zeroshift was not available at that time.
Shift systems designed for F1 do not have to be as 'robust'(last as long) as those for road use.
This makes it debatable as to the reliable use of some shift systems in road cars.
To be honest I do not know if the Zeroshift system you mention is.
I would expect them to have undertaken a lot of tests.
You should ask them.
The work I undertook on single layshaft stepped boxes did not end up in a road car because of this issue.
The twin clutch/twin shaft types are in road car use because they rely on their shift control in a different way that is far more reliable and robust.
Unfortunately this results in a much heavier and more complex unit with much higher torque loss and oil windage.
F1 layshaft gearboxes now have little in common with road manual gearboxes.
Interestingly, for electric traction neither type is reliable enough.
Tesla as an example had a three speed gearbox in the first prototypes.
It lasted 2,000 miles so they removed it.
I am waiting for the opertunity to meet the gearbox requirement for hybrid and full electric vehicles as soon as the market becomes mature enough.
At present there is nothing out there to do the job efficiently enough.

[Richard]

It is not what the teams think the drivers are capable of, or anything to do with the shift speed, it is the FIA regulations. The gears have to be sequential 12345677654321.

It is common practice with a manual box to short shift on downshifts, i.e change from say 7th down to 4th down to 2nd at corner entry. With sensible downforce levels and rate of deceleration this would allow proper gearbox control by the driver.

That's an interesting thought for limiting the speed and idea increased overtaking without DRS gimmicks.

[hardingfv32]

The gears have to be sequential 12345677654321.
It is common practice with a manual box to short shift on downshifts, i.e change from say 7th down to 4th down to 2nd at corner entry. With sensible down-force levels and rate of deceleration this would allow proper gearbox control by the driver. With the enforced sequential operation it becomes impossible in a manual gearbox to achieve with any reliability and without tireing the driver out in one lap.

1) I disagree. I have a 125 shifter kart and flying through the sequential gears is not an issue. Granted I sometimes miss count, but my son does not. Neither does the Moto GP.

If you are claiming that the brake zones are too short for manual sequential shifting, that is tough. It is up to the driver to develop a strategy that gets the job done.

2) Under 9.8.3, a new new, it would seem to indicate the drivers have to work there way done the shift pattern gear by gear. So I am not sure your position is as valid this year as it was last year. I do not think we have heard anyone complain.

9.8.3 The minimum possible gear the driver is able to select must remain fixed whilst the car is moving.
Each individual gear change must be separately initiated by the driver and, within the
mechanical constraints of the gearbox; the requested gear must be engaged immediately
unless over‐rev protection is used to reject the gear shift request. Once a gear change request
has been accepted no further requests may be accepted until the first gear change has been
completed.
Multiple gear changes may only be made under Article 5.19 or when a shift to gearbox neutral
is made following a request from the driver.

Brian

[strad]

the requested gear must be engaged immediately
unless over‐rev protection is used to reject the gear shift request.

And doesn't that undo the rule.
They can always purposely select too low a gear and the computer will take over to protect the engine..

[autogyro]

The gears have to be sequential 12345677654321.
It is common practice with a manual box to short shift on downshifts, i.e change from say 7th down to 4th down to 2nd at corner entry. With sensible down-force levels and rate of deceleration this would allow proper gearbox control by the driver. With the enforced sequential operation it becomes impossible in a manual gearbox to achieve with any reliability and without tireing the driver out in one lap.

1) I disagree. I have a 125 shifter kart and flying through the sequential gears is not an issue. Granted I sometimes miss count, but my son does not. Neither does the Moto GP.

A sequential gearbox in a kart or a racing bike is not a computer controlled F1 sequential gearbox. It also does not have to operate fast enough to cope with the massive deceleration of an F1 car and the very much shorter time and distance.
There is no comparison.

If you are claiming that the brake zones are too short for manual sequential shifting, that is tough. It is up to the driver to develop a strategy that gets the job done.

It most certainly is tough and although I bemoan the lost skill of manual racing gearchanges, F1 drivers still have to react very fast and also have to be very fit.

2) Under 9.8.3, a new new, it would seem to indicate the drivers have to work there way done the shift pattern gear by gear. So I am not sure your position is as valid this year as it was last year. I do not think we have heard anyone complain.

It does on first reading look to be the case, however there also appear to be plently of potential loopholes.

9.8.3 The minimum possible gear the driver is able to select must remain fixed whilst the car is moving.
Each individual gear change must be separately initiated by the driver and, within the
mechanical constraints of the gearbox; the requested gear must be engaged immediately
unless over‐rev protection is used to reject the gear shift request. Once a gear change request
has been accepted no further requests may be accepted until the first gear change has been
completed.
Multiple gear changes may only be made under Article 5.19 or when a shift to gearbox neutral
is made following a request from the driver.
Brian

[hardingfv32]

They can always purposely select too low a gear and the computer will take over to protect the engine..

While you could physically skip a gear, I would say the paddle or even shift lever in a sequential gearbox dictates that you work progressively though the gears. With the paddle, you might say you could hit it twice to jump a gear, but really the first signal starts a shift before you send the next paddles signal.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

It does on first reading look to be the case, however there also appear to be plently of potential loopholes.

If you find it fun and a challenge, please list some of the loopholes. Please note that more was added to this section than I listed.

Brian

[autogyro]

It does on first reading look to be the case, however there also appear to be plently of potential loopholes.

If you find it fun and a challenge, please list some of the loopholes. Please note that more was added to this section than I listed.

Brian

I will consider it.
However I refuse point blank these days to take an interest in F1 solely to find silly little loop holes in a far to overly complicated rule book.
The rules of F1 are not put together to encourage development in technology and I stopped bothering to fight this fact long ago.

[Richard]

With the paddle, you might say you could hit it twice to jump a gear, but really the first signal starts a shift before you send the next paddles signal.

The F1 rule you quoted says you can't hit the paddle twice like that. The computer ignores all further inputs until the first input is completed.

In the real world, my Merc 7G auto box can jump gears on down shifting as you describe.

[strad]

They can always purposely select too low a gear and the computer will take over to protect the engine..

While you could physically skip a gear, I would say the paddle or even shift lever in a sequential gearbox dictates that you work progressively though the gears. With the paddle, you might say you could hit it twice to jump a gear, but really the first signal starts a shift before you send the next paddles signal.

Brian

You'd be right if it was a manual sequential box like say on a motorcycle,,,but when the computer gets involved I think you can indeed jump from say fourth to first...the computer just hold the shift until it knows it wouldn't over-rev the engine.

[bhall]

It's possible, but illegal in F1.

[strad]

Technically it goes thru the gears I guess,,it's the way it's constructed,,,there is no choice, but never engages them.
About like pulling in the clutch and shifting all the way to first before you let the clutch back out is what the computer does.

[bhall]

I might be making this up, but I think the transmission of the McLaren MP4-12C is configured for shifts just like that.

[hardingfv32]

but when the computer gets involved I think you can indeed jump from say fourth to first...the computer just hold the shift until it knows it wouldn't over-rev the engine.

From a programming point of view how does the system know what you want to do? One hit of the 'down' paddle must mean one gear. How do you tell the computer I want two down this time? I hope that is clear.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

I might be making this up, but I think the transmission of the McLaren MP4-12C is configured for shifts just like that.

I believe at one point there were fully automatic gearboxes that knew where they were on the track to help determine what might be required.

What value would position knowledge be to the system? Wouldn't the normal speed, brake, rpm, and torque request (pedal position) be enough?

Brian