Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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strad
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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No..but I have just about every other racing gasoline you can mention.
You are free to believe what you will but just ask yourself this..
IF is is the same as pump gas..Why the articles about how Shell specifically formulates gas for Ferrari...Hell that it even gives them better mileage etc? Why don't they just fill up each time at the local service station?
It ain't even close to pump gas. I see it as a big advertising lie..aren't they all?
Why not just be honest? It would serve their ad campaign just as well.
Hell why not run whatever gas they want above board and honest. Lead? I don't care...do you? really?
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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Surely the fingerprint procedure has been around in F1 for about 20 years.
IMO its purpose is to stop fuel development at that point (early 90s), because no-one wanted to continue the expensive fuel 'arms race', (which could not have been stopped by rules based on the composition of real pump fuel - anyway no-one at that point wanted to throw away the gains of said race)

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strad
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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Think about the answers. Does it sound like pump gas to you? It's only relation to what you buy is the list of compuonds it contains..not the ratios and the brand name.
From James Allen Q&A:
Question from CGM: Is there any particular, discernible difference between the fuel that Shell provides to Ferrari compared to that which other suppliers provide to the different teams? Is this difference “quantifiable” in terms of engine life or lap times?

One of the key differences between regular Shell V-Power gasoline and the Shell V-Power racing fuel we provide to Ferrari is that even though the fuels are blended using the same base fuel chemistries, or ingredients, the racing fuel is highly optimized and fine-tuned for use in the Ferrari Formula One car. That means that the best fuel for the Ferrari F1 engine might not necessarily be the best fuel for the (for example) Cosworth engine, and vice versa.

Shell do not test competitor race fuels, just as we keep our fuels extremely confidential, however for these reasons it might not be a meaningful result even if you did. Success in F1 is about optimizing many thousands of different parts and components together (including the fuel), to give the most competitive package overall. This long-standing relationship is certainly an advantage that other manufactures do not have. We are constantly working to deliver new fuel formulations with improved performance – and in these cases we can quantify the difference though data around the power and fuel .



Question from Conor: Can you explain further the limitations/compromises involved with using the more economical fuel and how these affect races?

The challenge in fuel formulation is finding the optimized balance of a range of performance parameters. Obviously optimizing for power is a priority – but there isn’t too much point in doing this if you have to compromise too much in terms of fuel efficiency. There are also two types of fuel efficiency that we talk about, volumetric fuel efficiency (when the fuel is designed to give the best performance based on volume) and gravimetric fuel efficiency (where the fuel is designed to give the best performance based on mass).

You may have certain circuits which are marginal in terms of fuel tank capacity, in these cases maximising power and volumetric fuel efficiency is key. At other circuits the fuel tank size will not be a constraint, therefore gravimetric fuel efficiency (i.e. reducing the weight of the system) along with power will be the most important properties. Ferrari carry out extensive modeling and engine testing in Maranello with the candidate Shell V-Power racing fuels that we provide them, and that way we know that the best overall fuel is selected for each circuit.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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hollus
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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Strad, I think the point of F1 cars running on "pump fuel" is not as much to have the F1 car running on the same stuff you get at your corner gas station, but that if the gas station decided to sell you what Ferrari of Mercedes are running, it would be OK for your car and street legal (and expensive).
It is like comparing Lance Armstrong or Cristiano Ronaldo with you or me. All humans, but really, they are not made of the same stuff we are.
Rivals, not enemies.

hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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strad wrote:No..but I have just about every other racing gasoline you can mention.
You are free to believe what you will but just ask yourself this..
IF is is the same as pump gas..Why the articles about how Shell specifically formulates gas for Ferrari...Hell that it even gives them better mileage etc? Why don't they just fill up each time at the local service station?
It ain't even close to pump gas. I see it as a big advertising lie..aren't they all?
Why not just be honest? It would serve their ad campaign just as well.
Hell why not run whatever gas they want above board and honest. Lead? I don't care...do you? really?
1) Shell rights these ridiculous articles to sound like they actually are doing something special for this important form of motor-sport. I hope you are not taking them literally.

2) All Shell gas stations do not get their gas from Shell refineries. Probably no Shell stations near most the race venues. Lastly street gas can have questionable quality from time to time.

3) Fact: The FIA stated that fuel spec represented those of pump gas. The fuel used must meet the spec.... Thus is is similar to pump gas. Believe what you wish.

4) Why the need to lie? The FIA wanted lower HP.... 3.0 to 2.4 liter, etc., why not just advance their goal with low grade fuel?

Brian

hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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strad wrote: It's only relation to what you buy is the list of compounds it contains..not the ratios and the brand name.
This is incorrect. The rules spec specify either wt%, etc. Not sure of the relevance of brand name.

Brian

hardingfv32
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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From James Allen Q&A:

That means that the best fuel for the Ferrari F1 engine might not necessarily be the best fuel for the (for example) Cosworth engine, and vice versa.[/quote]

This strikes me humorous, but maybe there is something to be learned.

What properties of a fuel might need to be different between F1 engine manufactures? Assume max power, engine longevity and milage as common goals and servicing the same race weekend. I just don't see how their can be any difference goals.

Brian

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strad
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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Are you purposely mis understanding?
THEY try to sell the idea..whether Shell or the others,, that what they race is what you get. When in fact it's kinda like a cake...ours has flour and salt etc and so does theirs but that's the only way they are the same.
It's typical advertising lies. My problem is that the FIA and F1 throw their weight behind the lie.
What the rule basically says is that they have to have the same stuff in their race gas that they do in their road fuel.
As was said, it was instituted to get away from exotic blends that weren't really even gas. I say when it's heavier than water it ain't gas. It would be interesting just to weigh a gallon of each...may not be like the old days but one has to wonder.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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Tommy Cookers wrote:Surely the fingerprint procedure has been around in F1 for about 20 years.
IMO its purpose is to stop fuel development at that point (early 90s), because no-one wanted to continue the expensive fuel 'arms race', (which could not have been stopped by rules based on the composition of real pump fuel - anyway no-one at that point wanted to throw away the gains of said race)
The fuel has been regulated even pre F1 times but the restrictions were relatively simple. Things got nasty when the turbos of the late eighties were burning fuel that was 75% toluene. That stuff is a bit nasty because it is more toxic and cancerous than road car petrol. It also had very different physical properties in terms of storage, volatilization and combustion. I believe that the FiA banned it on safety grounds and since then F1 fuels are much tighter regulated.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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strad
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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At one point, non turbo I believe, where they had fuel that was heavier than water. :lol:
I don't care...I knew it would go like this...you believe what you want about the make up of F1 gasoline...I wouldn't want it anyway. It wouldn't work for squat in my Mustang Cobra and I know it wouldn't work well in the Caddy or any road car for that matter....That's my point.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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strad wrote:Are you purposely mis understanding?
THEY try to sell the idea..whether Shell or the others,, that what they race is what you get.
I do not see that at all. Do you have am advertisement, say from Europe, to demonstrate your point.

Brian

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strad
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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No I haven't captured an AD.
I give up.
You're right. They just run everyday gasoline. That's what the rules say. It must be so. :roll:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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Hi guys!

The 3.7% permitted Oxygen weight that has been quoted would yield just over 2% more power, if available for combustion. (Oxygen in real pump fuel is unavailable for gainful chemical reaction, i.e. that in the Ethanol or Oxygenate content)
This sounds like the 1988 figure given to me (38 bhp).
Available Oxygen in the fuel could bleach the skin ?,(as reported by Strad)
Is this how Jacques Villeneuve went blond ?

Fuel molecules were designed and made 70 years ago, that's now possible on a monitor screen. Many experiments were made in WW2, e.g. nitromethane, nitrous oxide, even peroxide. You can only test for all possible things that could be against the intent of the rules if you knew what they were. Today there's a lot possible.

Modern Avgas was designed in 1936 to allow a power gain with mixture enrichment around 10 times that of modern pump fuel, yet would meet the F1 spec (apart from the lead).

If each loophole would allow a coach & horses through, together, they would pass the whole of Wells Fargo !

I think most of this was done about 20 years ago, and the fuel fingerprints legitimise that work.

Has anyone actually seen one ?

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strad
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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Well a couple of times...Coulthard in one maybe?? the fingerprint didn't match and they got into trouble.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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strad
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Re: Fuel comparison- road legal formula vs f1 formula

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Kinda blows the same as BS out the window
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy-Dbgnt ... r_embedded
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss