The Renault V8 Engine

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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SectorOne
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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P85. It was supposed to run in 2005 but a sudden rule change regarding the lifetime (from 800km to 1600km) they decided to scrap it and use a modified P84 engine instead.
7. P85

2005 initially saw BMW pursuing a new approach aimed at increasing power while
simultaneously further reducing weight and lowering the centre of gravity. One
option investigated was larger V angles of 100° and 110°. The larger the V angle,
the lower the engine’s centre of gravity. However, this is accompanied by reduced
lateral bending stiffness and also by an increase in the overall width of the engine.
This limits the vertical installation space, which is then insufficient to achieve
efficient flow characteristics in the exhaust gas system. The 90° V angle was
therefore retained.

The P85 concept was revolutionary: cylinder spacing was further reduced to 102
mm and bore was increased to 98 mm, giving a wall thickness between cylinders
of just 4 mm. The cylinder head and piston bore formed a single casting, thus
dispensing with the highly stressed cylinder head gasket. The crankcase was
machined from solid. The crankshaft, with a clutch diameter of 99 mm, was
positioned just 52 mm above the lower surface of the engine. Long tie rods
connected the rudimentary crankcase with the cylinder head/cylinder unit. The
overall height of the P85 was 30 mm less than its predecessor.

The P85 also marked a big advance in thermodynamic terms. In parallel with
conventional manifold injection, BMW also developed a direct petrol injection
system, with corresponding combustion process. This was abandoned, however,
when it was announced that the regulations would limit injection pressure to 100
bar.

The engine had been designed and fine-tuned for a lifetime of 800 km, but a
sudden rule change now threw the preparations into chaos. One and the same
engine now had to be used for two race weekends running, i.e. it would have to be
capable of covering 1,600 km. This was too much of a risk with a new – and
“extreme” – engine concept. So the P85 project was stopped and instead the
existing P84 was revised to meet the new endurance requirements.
Considering the differences between the old P84 and the modified version, it could have been something truly insane.

10+hp (950hp)
2kg´s lighter (84kg!)
6mm lower CoG (118mm)

for the modified P84.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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SectorOne
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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FW23 no traction control just an on/off switch for the throttle :)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsg7gKaTzwg[/youtube]
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

riff_raff
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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I would imagine that all current F1 engines are closely matched in terms of SFC or max power. The actual difference in max engine power from best to worst is probably less than 2%, which would not make a huge difference in lap times by itself. The difference in lap times is probably mostly due to better aero efficiency of the front runner's cars.

However, with regards to engine reliability, I could imagine that there are significant differences between engine suppliers. Engine reliability and fatigue life can be significantly affected by even small details in the design and manufacture of individual components.
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A: Start with a large one!"

hecti
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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SectorOne wrote:FW23 no traction control just an on/off switch for the throttle :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsg7gKaTzwg
It has traction control, however it must be adjustable to suit the drivers needs
source http://www.crash.net/f1/news/38165/1/wi ... cours.html

Sevach
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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Traction control was reintroduced in the Spanish GP, the early season (including the San Marino footage) was run without it.
I'm sure they tested the car before implementing it fully.

A lot of the raggedness is down to Montoya not having yet mastered the F1 car however, Ralf was a lot smoother.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqj7oR3Jl3s[/youtube]

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SectorOne
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Nice find, yea much smoother there, i bet some is partly because of the track but of course Schumacher as well.
You could see an hint of it out of T2.

Here´s a good vid showing the power deficit.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp16q688Nzg[/youtube]
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munudeges
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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Juzh wrote:I think it's not that difficult to work it out. More power -> more fuel consumption for mercs and vice versa for renault. Wasn't toyota actually the weakest V8 engine? Even weaker than the reanult.
Indeed so. It's been pretty clear for many years that the Renault is weak with top end power. Renault powered teams always drop back at places like Spa and Monza. Red Bull have mitigated it in recent times with a much better drag/downforce ratio, playing with engine maps to generate exhaust gas and playing about with gear ratios to get the car to accelerate faster than others rather than going for maximum top speed. However, they're all peripheral solutions to the problem of horsepower.

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Blackout
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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The Renault V8 maybe was the most powerful V8 (or the second) at the end of the 2006 season according to many insiders... but as ou know regulations in 2006 were very different than 2007, 2008 etc.
Many very interesting recent interviews about the Renault V8 (but the are in french):

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/L-ad ... 69816.html
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/L-ad ... 69828.html
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/L-ad ... 69826.html
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/L-ad ... 69825.html
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Rena ... 69806.html

Owen.C93
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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A lot of the engines had similar peak power. But apparently some fell off quite a bit more than others as they piled the mileage on, particularly the Cosworth engine. This is where the engines had the most development during the engine "freeze".
Motorsport Graduate in search of team experience ;)

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SectorOne
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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Q&A with Rob White, a snippet that i found interesting,
Q:
Without the engine freeze and limit on RPM, what would these engines be capable of?

Rob White
Without the rev limit we would have continued to pursue greater rpm until we became limited by the physics of the combustion process and diminishing returns due to increased friction with increasing rotational speed. Without any other new regulatory constraint, I imagine we would have reached over 22,000 rpm by now and would have found a further 75 horsepower (ie +10%), equivalent to a lap time gain of around 2 sec at Monza.

Without doing the development work, it is difficult to judge the level at which engine performance would have converged at the limit of the technical regulations. The same effects that have been pursued in the frozen era (exhausts, mapping etc) would have been of interest, but the priorities may have been different.

http://www.crash.net/f1/interview/19888 ... mpaign=rss
And that´s with regulations like fixed weight and CoG. I can only imagine how hardcore the engines would have been had the engine manufacturers been given more freedom like in the V10 days.

BMW said something that a V8 without weight restriction could weigh as little as 69kg´s if i remember correctly.
(V8 minimum weight today is 95kg´s)

Edit: lol
The actual weight of a piston is only 250g but when the engine revs to its maximum limit of 18,000rpm (that's 300 revs per second!) the acceleration exerts a force of 2 tonnes on the piston and conrod.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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Holm86
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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SectorOne wrote:Q&A with Rob White, a snippet that i found interesting,
Q:
Without the engine freeze and limit on RPM, what would these engines be capable of?

Rob White
Without the rev limit we would have continued to pursue greater rpm until we became limited by the physics of the combustion process and diminishing returns due to increased friction with increasing rotational speed. Without any other new regulatory constraint, I imagine we would have reached over 22,000 rpm by now and would have found a further 75 horsepower (ie +10%), equivalent to a lap time gain of around 2 sec at Monza.

Without doing the development work, it is difficult to judge the level at which engine performance would have converged at the limit of the technical regulations. The same effects that have been pursued in the frozen era (exhausts, mapping etc) would have been of interest, but the priorities may have been different.

http://www.crash.net/f1/interview/19888 ... mpaign=rss
And that´s with regulations like fixed weight and CoG. I can only imagine how hardcore the engines would have been had the engine manufacturers been given more freedom like in the V10 days.

BMW said something that a V8 without weight restriction could weigh as little as 69kg´s if i remember correctly.
(V8 minimum weight today is 95kg´s)

Edit: lol
The actual weight of a piston is only 250g but when the engine revs to its maximum limit of 18,000rpm (that's 300 revs per second!) the acceleration exerts a force of 2 tonnes on the piston and conrod.
Quite interesting stuff indeed :) Would have loved to hear those engines racing around the circuits :)

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SectorOne
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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Yea that would have been something very special i think :)

That would have been very Formula One when people asking why they can´t rev more and the respond would be "we physically can´t make it rev any more".
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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Holm86
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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SectorOne wrote:Yea that would have been something very special i think :)

That would have been very Formula One when people asking why they can´t rev more and the respond would be "we physically can´t make it rev any more".
At least not with todays fuels ;-)

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SectorOne
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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Good point!
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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Blackout
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Re: The Renault V8 Engine

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AFAIR as I remeber, Holm and others talked about this point here in the past... this what Taffin said about the V8 in an interview last year:
(google translate):
"There are other ways we could explore but it was impossible because of the freeze. For example, we could drive without the butterflies and continuously generate a stream of exhaust gas to maintain the aerodynamic gains from this. Without this limitation of development, it would have been possible to reach 22 000 tr/min and 850 horses. Certainly, more power is synonymous with better speed, but other factors come into account and should be exploited ... Cars are now more efficient and effective, logically, generates good results."

''More than the power, we discovered that the gains were higher by having an engine lighter and more fuel efficient. In addition we also found that the integration of parts and later, the use of the exhausts and mapping had a major impact on performance."


BTW Piola said that the Ferrari, the Renault and the BMW V8 where the most powerful in 2006, before the freeze. Top speeds tend to confirm that.