Idea's for the next engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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Tim.Wright wrote:
autogyro wrote:Internal combustion and liquid fuel will only continue until electrical energy storage reaches a level capable of meeting range and sustained power requirements.
I think thats pretty obvious though...

The main killer for me is not range but the recharge time. A 300km range would be acceptable if it didnt take several hours for a proper recharge. It doesn't look like this will change in the short term though.
Simple answer to that is sections of motorway with induction charging.
It is not the technology that is preventing progress.

beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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autogyro wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:
autogyro wrote:Internal combustion and liquid fuel will only continue until electrical energy storage reaches a level capable of meeting range and sustained power requirements.
I think thats pretty obvious though...

The main killer for me is not range but the recharge time. A 300km range would be acceptable if it didnt take several hours for a proper recharge. It doesn't look like this will change in the short term though.
Simple answer to that is sections of motorway with induction charging.
It is not the technology that is preventing progress.
The even simpler answer is batteries that get you 6-800 miles. Tesla is already about half way to that, and making big gains. I wouldn't be surprised if their truck had a range around 500 miles. Once you're at 6-800 miles you're talking about 10-14 hours of driving in a day, non stop. Their current models can already charge to 90% in half an hour, and frankly the idea that within 10-14 hours of driving you wouldn't want a half hour break for lunch/dinner/to sleep/just to have a break, is frankly ridiculous.

Tommy Cookers
620
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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the life of a Lithium-ion battery is 8 years
based on only using about 30% of its full capacity (that's why real-world EV range is only about 60 miles)
otherwise less than 3 years, especially with fast charging
if you have lots of range and use it daily you will be buying a huge battery every 3 years
if you have a lot less range and use it daily you will be buying a very big battery every 8 years
aren't we still waiting for that battery breakthrough that's been just over the horizon this last 40 years ?

btw autogyro
what's the efficiency of your ignition coil when it's live but the engine is not running ? 0%
what's the real-world efficiency of your charge-as-you-drive inductive link ?
an inductive link in physical contact (ie with vehicle stationary) is about 94% efficient when actually transfering energy
a non-contacting link with a discontinuous load factor will be maybe 80% efficient ?
(though it will have value as a road defroster)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 18 May 2014, 23:33, edited 1 time in total.

beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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Tommy Cookers wrote:the life of a Lithium-ion battery is 8 years
based on only using about 30% of its full capacity (that's why real-world EV range is only about 60 miles)
otherwise less than 3 years, especially with fast charging
Except that the reality of a car that can go 600-800 miles is that 90% of the time you're going to be going 20 miles to work, and back again. It's only in the 10% of cases, where you're going on a long trip that you need fast charging or to use the whole range, so in reality, you're going to get closer to the 8 year mark (tesla actually guarantee 10 years) than the 3.
if you have lots of range and use it daily you will be buying a huge battery every 3 years
I don't know anyone who isn't a lorry driver who does 600-800 miles a day. Even people who do 100 miles a day (which would be less than 30% of the proposed battery's range) are extremely rare.
if you have a lot less range and use it daily you will be buying a very big battery every 8 years
aren't we still waiting for that battery breakthrough that's been just over the horizon this last 40 years ?
If you drive a petrol car hundreds of miles every day, you will in only 100 days reach 10,000 miles and need to do a full service (which you wouldn't need on an EV). After only 2 or 3 years it's likely that you're going to have serious wear on the transmission, and need to replace large chunks of it, along with large chunks of the exhaust system. After 8 years of doing 100 miles a day (nearly 300,000 miles) you're likely to need a complete new engine, gearbox and diff.

Basically, your fantasy in which you need to replace the battery very often is a complete fiction, and not how anyone drives their car, and your slightly less fantastical scenario where you need one expensive bit of maintenance every 10 years ignores that the petrol car will need lots of moderately pricey maintenance along the way that the EV doesn't need, and also costs hugely more in fuel.

For reference, while we're on that subject, to drive that 300,000 miles, a typical petrol car would have needed about 10,000 US gallons of fuel, and even in a relatively cheap country, that's going to cost you $30-40,000. Meanwhile, the EV will have cost you about $10,000 in electricity (in fact, given that many workplaces offer charging stations there, probably more like $5000), so the fuel cost alone will be more than the cost of replacing the battery 3 times.

Finally, re being 40 years off, no, we're a lot under 40 years off now. Tesla is already producing practical every day use EVs, we're likely within 5 years of EVs that do as well as petrol cars on long journeys.

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Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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autogyro wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:
autogyro wrote:Internal combustion and liquid fuel will only continue until electrical energy storage reaches a level capable of meeting range and sustained power requirements.
I think thats pretty obvious though...

The main killer for me is not range but the recharge time. A 300km range would be acceptable if it didnt take several hours for a proper recharge. It doesn't look like this will change in the short term though.
Simple answer to that is sections of motorway with induction charging.
It is not the technology that is preventing progress.
Whats simple about digging up millions of km of roadway?
Not the engineer at Force India

autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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Simple answer to that is sections of motorway with induction charging.
It is not the technology that is preventing progress.

Whats simple about digging up millions of km of roadway?
You would only prepare sections of motorway for recharge initially not the whole infra structure.
The sections chosen would have wind turbines and solar panels (and auxiliary mains input).
Off traffic peak the clean energy would go into the national grid, unless the road needed defrosting.

I have already contacted Monaco and suggested such a below road induction system for the grand prix circuit that could also be used for FE and other electric racing.
I am also looking for investors for electric kart racing circuits on the same lines.

Moxie
5
Joined: 06 Oct 2013, 20:58

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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50 kg fuel limit (same pump gasoline for all teams)
Race distance unchanged from 2014

Alternative carbon based fuels are prohibited
No battery pre-charge
3 engines per season. Severe points penalty for using a fourth engine.

Otherwise unrestricted engine design. Get to the finish line as fast as possible on the limited fuel.

beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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Moxie wrote:Alternative carbon based fuels are prohibited
No battery pre-charge
So... hydrogen then?

Moxie
5
Joined: 06 Oct 2013, 20:58

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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beelsebob wrote:
Moxie wrote:Alternative carbon based fuels are prohibited
No battery pre-charge
So... hydrogen then?

Oops, forgot about that. I'm not even going to try to word this in a way to actually be a regulation. My intent is this:

Gasoline/petrol is still the overwhelmingly dominant fuel in the world. I want the engineers to design the engines to use the allotted fuel to maximum efficiency. Substituting another energy store defeats the purpose. If the engineers choose to generate hydrogen on board, from water, I'd allow it.

j2004p
7
Joined: 31 Mar 2010, 18:22

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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beelsebob wrote: The even simpler answer is batteries that get you 6-800 miles. Tesla is already about half way to that, and making big gains. I wouldn't be surprised if their truck had a range around 500 miles. Once you're at 6-800 miles you're talking about 10-14 hours of driving in a day, non stop. Their current models can already charge to 90% in half an hour, and frankly the idea that within 10-14 hours of driving you wouldn't want a half hour break for lunch/dinner/to sleep/just to have a break, is frankly ridiculous.
Even simpler answer IMO would be to implement a set of standardised quick swappable battery packs.

You could still charge your EV at home as they currently do, but should you start to run low you pull into a (former) petrol station and you can swap your depleted pack for one they have had on charge.

You'd pay the station only for the service of swapping the pack and the electricity itself as your depleted pack goes back on charge with them to be used by some other punter later on that day.

Seems like there'd be far less overhead adapting the petrol station infrastructure to accommodate such a change rather than induction coils dug into the road.

beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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j2004p wrote:
beelsebob wrote: The even simpler answer is batteries that get you 6-800 miles. Tesla is already about half way to that, and making big gains. I wouldn't be surprised if their truck had a range around 500 miles. Once you're at 6-800 miles you're talking about 10-14 hours of driving in a day, non stop. Their current models can already charge to 90% in half an hour, and frankly the idea that within 10-14 hours of driving you wouldn't want a half hour break for lunch/dinner/to sleep/just to have a break, is frankly ridiculous.
Even simpler answer IMO would be to implement a set of standardised quick swappable battery packs.
The problem with that is that no one is going to want to do it - you don't want to drive 600 miles, reach a swap station, and then get given a 9 and a half year old battery that's only good for 300 miles. Replacing your brand new battery in the brand new car you just bought. Frankly, if you can drive for an entire day without needing to charge it, that's enough for all but the most extreme uses of cars, and I think we'll reach that point way before anyone's willing to battery swap.
Seems like there'd be far less overhead adapting the petrol station infrastructure to accommodate such a change rather than induction coils dug into the road.
Absolutely, coils in the road are never going to happen - it's just way too much overhead. But the way I see it developing is simply that "petrol stations" become distributed things - every business, every parking meter, and every person's garage gets a hookup point, so that wherever you stop for the night, you can charge.

If you live in Silicon Valley, you find that this is already happening. At every single company around here, you will find charging stations in the car park for employees to use while they're at work.

langwadt
35
Joined: 25 Mar 2012, 14:54

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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beelsebob wrote:
j2004p wrote:
beelsebob wrote: The even simpler answer is batteries that get you 6-800 miles. Tesla is already about half way to that, and making big gains. I wouldn't be surprised if their truck had a range around 500 miles. Once you're at 6-800 miles you're talking about 10-14 hours of driving in a day, non stop. Their current models can already charge to 90% in half an hour, and frankly the idea that within 10-14 hours of driving you wouldn't want a half hour break for lunch/dinner/to sleep/just to have a break, is frankly ridiculous.
Even simpler answer IMO would be to implement a set of standardised quick swappable battery packs.
The problem with that is that no one is going to want to do it - you don't want to drive 600 miles, reach a swap station, and then get given a 9 and a half year old battery that's only good for 300 miles. Replacing your brand new battery in the brand new car you just bought.

snip
doesn't have to be a problem, just make the battery a loaner/lease, like gas bottles. You pay for the content but the container you can always return for a new one.

afaiu Betterplace did that but they went bankrupt before they reached enough costumers to make the huge infrastructure profitable

beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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langwadt wrote:doesn't have to be a problem, just make the battery a loaner/lease, like gas bottles. You pay for the content but the container you can always return for a new one.
Except that doesn't solve the problem. Gas bottles hold the same amount every time. Batteries do not. You can't plan a trip based off stopping to change a battery and getting "somewhere between 200 and 800 miles" from the battery you get. The manufacturer is also extremely unlikely to want to go this route, as they're then taking on all of the cost of battery wear, rather than the customer.

langwadt
35
Joined: 25 Mar 2012, 14:54

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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beelsebob wrote:
langwadt wrote:doesn't have to be a problem, just make the battery a loaner/lease, like gas bottles. You pay for the content but the container you can always return for a new one.
Except that doesn't solve the problem. Gas bottles hold the same amount every time. Batteries do not. You can't plan a trip based off stopping to change a battery and getting "somewhere between 200 and 800 miles" from the battery you get. The manufacturer is also extremely unlikely to want to go this route, as they're then taking on all of the cost of battery wear, rather than the customer.
my car only does ~250 miles on a full tank, I don't see that as a problem providing the infrastructure is there to change batteries when needed. The cost of the battery wear could be included in the price/part of a lease or something like that

Electric cars may not be _the_ solution right now, but I don't see why electric cars have to do something most other cars can't.

Its seems that when it comes to electric it must do everything. if it is not a very fast nimble sportscar, that comfortable seats 8, can tow a yatch, do 800miles on a charge, comes with a charging station on every corner, has no parts that wear out, inexpensive, good looking, it is dismissed as an idea that will never work

beelsebob
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Idea's for the next engine formula

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langwadt wrote:Its seems that when it comes to electric it must do everything. if it is not a very fast nimble sportscar, that comfortable seats 8, can tow a yatch, do 800miles on a charge, comes with a charging station on every corner, has no parts that wear out, inexpensive, good looking, it is dismissed as an idea that will never work
No, it simply has to be at least as good as a current petrol car. That's why the Model S is being successful - it is as good as a current petrol car, in a very narrow set of constraints (that you're never going to do long distance driving for example). The next milestone we need to get to is being as good at doing long distance driving.

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