Honda Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Webber2011
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Webber2011 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:05 am

Hey there techman,
I'm not in any way trying to criticise you here, this question is more out of personal interest than anything else.

Are you actually some sort of "techman", or is that simply a username you liked ?

This forum used to be, and actually still is made up of some very technically minded people.

However in recent past there seems to be an influx of members that would be better suited to the Shitfight's one would normally see over at the Autosport Forum.

I know that language can be a barrier because there plenty of members here for whom english is not their first language, so it's possible I'm not fully understanding you at times.

But honestly, you seem to be here for the sole purpose of bashing McLaren, and I'm wondering if you have any technical knowledge to back up your claims ?

(Just for the record my opinion is that they will be no where compared to Red Bull next season)

Cheers,
Simon

hemichromis
20
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:00 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by hemichromis » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:10 am

If Mclaren's chassis is so bad why on earth would they move to Renault?

Mclaren's chassis should be in the top 4 at the moment. How close they are to Red bull, we don't know!
Honda's engine is currently behind Renault. How far behind, we don't know.

I personally believe Honda will make big strides this year and into next.

techman
10
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:25 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by techman » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:45 am

if hasegawa is saying the current spec is close to renault and will overtake them with spec 4. then its logical to think mclaren over a second gap difference to redbull is NOT due to the honda engine alone. and its only redbull who is giving this chassis performance, neither TR or renault works team is giving this chassis performance. It unfortuante that mclaren is compared with redbull,? why not renault or TR both running the same engine. redbull is the benchmark in aero efficiency. iam personally happy the mclaren left honda to renault. so next season for those who said mclaren chassis is the best and its the honda engine is the reason for poor performance. well 2018 will be an eye opener. Eric boullier is quoted of saying mclaren are hoping to get third in the constructor title 2018 and also wins. well lets see.

Dimi
3
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:19 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Dimi » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:33 pm

roon wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:12 am
Dimi wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:14 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:33 pm
Why is the fuel piping going into the valve cover (on the left side)?

I see the cam driven pump on the right.(or maybe it's just something else bolted to the valve cover?) but.. look.. no fuel lines to be seen otherwise? hmm..

Those spark plugs might be combination injectors.. TJI... with an internal passage built into the valve cover that goes into the injectors from there?

Or maybe i am just crazy, and the injector are side entry hidden from view..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLXW2BfUEAEAY3Y.jpg
In this photo you can see two cables running into each coil. Maybe one for the plug and the other for the injector.
Any idea what is the armored cable at the right side of each coil?
Might be cylinder pressure sensors.

https://www.kistler.com/fileadmin/user_ ... 05_web.png

https://www.industrialtechnology.co.uk/ ... istler.jpg
That was my first though too.
But i think its strange to be a part of the main wiring on a test engine and even more to do compustion analysis during a race.
Except these ecu 's have the ability to read and use some data like peak pressure value

factory_p
9
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:04 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by factory_p » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:00 pm

Dimi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:33 pm
But i think its strange to be a part of the main wiring on a test engine and even more to do compustion analysis during a race.
Teams have all been running onboard cylinder pressure analysis since 2014. The ECU counts knock events and manages ignition timing (and probably other parameters but timing is surely N°1) on each cylinder individually throughout the race to stay as close as possible to knock without knock.
In quali mode, teams allow themselves to take 4-5 knock events per lap and per cylinder for those running Aluminium pistons, and more like 15-20 (my guesstimate) for those running steel pistons. Ideally, they will endure these knock events at the beginning of the longest straights (when extra torque brings you the most lap time) and turn down the timing to save the engine further down the straight.
Generally, the ECU learns throughout the free practice how to deploy-harvest electric power as we know, but also where the engine is more prone to knock and where the engine will accept a little more timing without knock.

They also count knock events throughout the lifetime of the engine to judge how close it is to a rapid unscheduled disassembly.

Dimi
3
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:19 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Dimi » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:12 pm

Nice. Do you know if they use specialized devices(kistler, avl) or ecu for the analysis

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:03 pm

Autosport Hasegawa statements: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13233 ... ault-power

"From the beginning of the season, we have been improving the power unit - not only in terms of performance but also reliability. Since we introduced spec 3.5 engine, I think that level of performance is very close to the Renault. I cannot say it's better than Renault but the important thing is the reliability is much better. We're not close enough, but the gap is very small compared to last year and the first year. There is no doubt in this current concept, we're choosing a very similar concept to Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes. There is no reason we can't achieve the same level of performance with the current concept."
Honda!

j.yank
21
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:45 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by j.yank » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:25 pm

dren wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:03 pm
Autosport Hasegawa statements: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13233 ... ault-power

"From the beginning of the season, we have been improving the power unit - not only in terms of performance but also reliability. Since we introduced spec 3.5 engine, I think that level of performance is very close to the Renault. I cannot say it's better than Renault but the important thing is the reliability is much better. We're not close enough, but the gap is very small compared to last year and the first year. There is no doubt in this current concept, we're choosing a very similar concept to Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes. There is no reason we can't achieve the same level of performance with the current concept."
If this is true, the McLaren chassis is a disaster slightly better than Renault's chassis. Probably their performance in slow corners sectors is due to the balance of the car, not to better aero-efficiency. This could explain why they were so far behind RedBul at Suzusuka, and why RedBul has such better performance even with Renault engine. Otherwise Hasegawa statement would be very strange.

Singabule
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Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:47 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Singabule » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:25 pm

Hasegawa is not Arai san, i dont believe every statement from Arai san. On the contrary, statement from Hasegawa always honest IMO. However maybe for qualy or full power, since when Honda turn up the setting their pace is similar to renault factory team. For race setting, honda tend to turn down the setting as their engine is really fragile, maybe because of lightweight aluminium piston and bearing problem in MGUH. If you want evidence, look at vandoorne in malaysia 7 first lap stint. Ferrari cannot pass him even with DRS. If reliability is sorted, i believe their race pace would similar to renault.
Last edited by Singabule on Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

etusch
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Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:29 pm

j.yank wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:25 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:03 pm
Autosport Hasegawa statements: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13233 ... ault-power

"From the beginning of the season, we have been improving the power unit - not only in terms of performance but also reliability. Since we introduced spec 3.5 engine, I think that level of performance is very close to the Renault. I cannot say it's better than Renault but the important thing is the reliability is much better. We're not close enough, but the gap is very small compared to last year and the first year. There is no doubt in this current concept, we're choosing a very similar concept to Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes. There is no reason we can't achieve the same level of performance with the current concept."
If this is true, the McLaren chassis is a disaster slightly better than Renault's chassis. Probably their performance in slow corners sectors is due to the balance of the car, not to better aero-efficiency. This could explain why they were so far behind RedBul at Suzusuka, and why RedBul has such better performance even with Renault engine. Otherwise Hasegawa statement would be very strange.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think mechanical grip does bigger part of job at slow corners

dren
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:43 pm

j.yank wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:25 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:03 pm
Autosport Hasegawa statements: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13233 ... ault-power

"From the beginning of the season, we have been improving the power unit - not only in terms of performance but also reliability. Since we introduced spec 3.5 engine, I think that level of performance is very close to the Renault. I cannot say it's better than Renault but the important thing is the reliability is much better. We're not close enough, but the gap is very small compared to last year and the first year. There is no doubt in this current concept, we're choosing a very similar concept to Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes. There is no reason we can't achieve the same level of performance with the current concept."
If this is true, the McLaren chassis is a disaster slightly better than Renault's chassis. Probably their performance in slow corners sectors is due to the balance of the car, not to better aero-efficiency. This could explain why they were so far behind RedBul at Suzusuka, and why RedBul has such better performance even with Renault engine. Otherwise Hasegawa statement would be very strange.
To me, this is just damage mitigation. Honda is stating they aren't as bad as everyone thinks, yet they are still the worst. It's really hard to speculate exactly where they are. If the gap is smaller now than last year, then they should be at least finishing in the points because they were doing that last year around this time. It will be interesting to see where Mclaren is relative to the other Renault powered teams next year.
Honda!

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:45 pm

Singabule wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:25 pm
Hasegawa is not Arai san, i dont believe every statement from Arai san. On the contrary, statement from Hasegawa always honest IMO. However maybe for qualy or full power, since when Honda turn up the setting their pace is similar to renault factory team. For race setting, honda tend to turn down the setting as their engine is really fragile, maybe because of lightweight aluminium piston and bearing problem in MGUH. If you want evidence, look at vandoorne in malaysia 7 first lap stint. Ferrari cannot pass him even with DRS. If reliability is sorted, i believe their race pace would similar to renault.
While his statements may be honest, they can be fairly vague and misleading, likely on purpose. You get the feeling from the article, and the title, that Honda is nipping at the heals of Renault, when in reality, they could be 5 hp closer than they were last year.
Honda!

j.yank
21
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:45 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by j.yank » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:59 pm

etusch wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:29 pm
j.yank wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:25 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:03 pm
Autosport Hasegawa statements: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13233 ... ault-power

"From the beginning of the season, we have been improving the power unit - not only in terms of performance but also reliability. Since we introduced spec 3.5 engine, I think that level of performance is very close to the Renault. I cannot say it's better than Renault but the important thing is the reliability is much better. We're not close enough, but the gap is very small compared to last year and the first year. There is no doubt in this current concept, we're choosing a very similar concept to Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes. There is no reason we can't achieve the same level of performance with the current concept."
If this is true, the McLaren chassis is a disaster slightly better than Renault's chassis. Probably their performance in slow corners sectors is due to the balance of the car, not to better aero-efficiency. This could explain why they were so far behind RedBul at Suzusuka, and why RedBul has such better performance even with Renault engine. Otherwise Hasegawa statement would be very strange.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think mechanical grip does bigger part of job at slow corners
The weight distribution and COG are important, too, where you stop in the corner and how you are going out. Probably the better torque in low RPM is also a factor (something about this were mentioned by Hasegawa). Interestingly, this interview coincidences with the info from Spanish media that the simulations of the McLaren-Renault package don't produce better results than what we see this year. Yes, these are pure speculations but somehow they confirm my suspicions that the Honda engine contributes significantly to the chassis performance.

Snorked
5
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Snorked » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:01 pm

Honda couldn't use their qualifying mode in Suzuka because of the FIA?

Honda was unable to use qualifying mode at the Japan GP. Suzuka Special also seems to have prepared preparatory qualifying mode, but it has been forced to abandon its use by strengthening the regulation from FIA, in Suzuka where the power effect reaches as large as 0.2 sec / 10 kW, this disadvantage never ends It was not small.
https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... tWrCQGb-QQ

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:13 pm

Either that and/or the Honda lump isn't that bad at the moment.

It is impressive to see the evolution of how the PU looks from their first effort to what is in use now. The original PU looked like a cobbled together mess relative to the new PU. The new PU looks very well designed down to the small detail.
Honda!