Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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GoranF1 wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 19:13
godlameroso wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 19:09
That's fair, and it really seems like the Honda is no longer extremely thirsty, Vandoorne could maintain the same lap times with little drop off all race long. That in itself is a step forward, the power will come as the mapping is developed and the hardware is tweaked to take advantage of it. New injectors, heads, pistons, cams can't be rushed, all of these things have to work in synergy and have to be developed methodically.
But they need to be inteoduced very very very soon said Alonso yesterday post race.
They want to introduce it as soon as possible, but at the same time, they want to make sure what they introduce will be worth it.
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ziggy
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Joined: 19 Nov 2012, 22:05

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I don't wnat to be disrespectfull or anything like that, but guys, are we breathing the same air? To point out only the latest news; Frederic Vasseur said it was SCARY, what he heard about Honda from Mclaren. He didnt said it's a problem or worrying or something like that. He said SCARY.

Second part, as pointed out many times, bad luck can happen few times a season, not every race or every second race. There is something totally wrong at Honda. Heck, they still don't have the necessary tools to develop their PU. It's now 8 months gone, since the problems became known (dec. 2016) and the PU is still unreliable, has not enough power and on top of it, it is to thirsty.

So to conclude, as much I'm gonna be hated for this: It's over for this season and it's over for next season. This is not negative, this is reality. As long as they don't change their behaviors, development methods or racing culture, it's over. Simple as that. Continuing to work, like they have before, is only going to a dead end. If wazari and what he is saying here on this forum is true, the situation is even darker than we thought...

And before I get attacked again for posting the truth, I personally would love more than anyone else to see McHonda fighting for wins, and it hurts to see them like that, both Honda and Mclaren, but the truth is the truth. Oh and thanks to the ass, which is giving negative rating for posting the truth. Peace.

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Marti_EF3
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Joined: 30 May 2017, 00:45
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Albert Fabrega says that the gap is now at 60hp. Could be it possible?? If this is true, with some mapping and unlock some power of the current spec if reliability allows it...
https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... 3612561409

harjan
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Joined: 05 Dec 2016, 08:28

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Peak power is close? Vettel claimed he's loosing 0.7 sec on the Baku straight in qualifying and 0.5 in Austria. And that's to a Ferrari PU..

63l8qrrfy6
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Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: Honda Power Unit

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What are the chances that Honda engineers are just completely exhausted and just can't get it together?

Think about the japanese work culture, surely they have been putting in insanely long hour for the past few years, do you think it's possible that they just burnt out?

It's not hard to see how the combination of extreme pressure, repeated failures etc can really affect even a very emotionally stable person.

I am pretty sure Honda have all the tools and knowledge needed to put together a decent engine and after 3+ years they shouldn't be lacking the experience either.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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harjan wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 19:22
Peak power is close? Vettel claimed he's loosing 0.7 sec on the Baku straight in qualifying and 0.5 in Austria. And that's to a Ferrari PU..
Many reasons for that, one being that Ferrari runs far more wing, and thus more drag, the Mercedes can still deploy longer than the Ferrari.

This isn't directed at you, it's more of a general comment people here have little understanding of the actual situation. In the long run however, it doesn't matter if people write Honda off, it won't change anything. Like I said, it is what it is, and I've said it over and over, they'll get it right, I know they can get it done by around Suzuka. Maybe not enough to win races, but definitely enough to not be embarrassed by lesser teams.
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makecry
19
Joined: 06 Mar 2016, 22:33

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 19:41
harjan wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 19:22
Peak power is close? Vettel claimed he's loosing 0.7 sec on the Baku straight in qualifying and 0.5 in Austria. And that's to a Ferrari PU..
Many reasons for that, one being that Ferrari runs far more wing, and thus more drag, the Mercedes can still deploy longer than the Ferrari.

This isn't directed at you, it's more of a general comment people here have little understanding of the actual situation. In the long run however, it doesn't matter if people write Honda off, it won't change anything. Like I said, it is what it is, and I've said it over and over, they'll get it right, I know they can get it done by around Suzuka. Maybe not enough to win races, but definitely enough to not be embarrassed by lesser teams.
I remember asking this before but is this an informed statement or just a hunch or optimistic hope from a fan?

SameSame
4
Joined: 16 Jun 2016, 18:44

Re: Honda Power Unit

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ziggy wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 19:15
I don't wnat to be disrespectfull or anything like that, but guys, are we breathing the same air? To point out only the latest news; Frederic Vasseur said it was SCARY, what he heard about Honda from Mclaren. He didnt said it's a problem or worrying or something like that. He said SCARY.

Second part, as pointed out many times, bad luck can happen few times a season, not every race or every second race. There is something totally wrong at Honda. Heck, they still don't have the necessary tools to develop their PU. It's now 8 months gone, since the problems became known (dec. 2016) and the PU is still unreliable, has not enough power and on top of it, it is to thirsty.

So to conclude, as much I'm gonna be hated for this: It's over for this season and it's over for next season. This is not negative, this is reality. As long as they don't change their behaviors, development methods or racing culture, it's over. Simple as that. Continuing to work, like they have before, is only going to a dead end. If wazari and what he is saying here on this forum is true, the situation is even darker than we thought...

And before I get attacked again for posting the truth, I personally would love more than anyone else to see McHonda fighting for wins, and it hurts to see them like that, both Honda and Mclaren, but the truth is the truth. Oh and thanks to the ass, which is giving negative rating for posting the truth. Peace.
Totally agree with you. People also forget the nature of the unreliability side of things; imagine Merc and Ferrari ran their PUs so hard that they only lasted one race? They would be much further ahead. They have to dial things back for reliability. If Honda can't match their output by going flat out at each race; then they are a long long way off in matching the others in a reliably running fashion.

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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makecry wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 20:16
godlameroso wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 19:41
harjan wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 19:22
Peak power is close? Vettel claimed he's loosing 0.7 sec on the Baku straight in qualifying and 0.5 in Austria. And that's to a Ferrari PU..
Many reasons for that, one being that Ferrari runs far more wing, and thus more drag, the Mercedes can still deploy longer than the Ferrari.

This isn't directed at you, it's more of a general comment people here have little understanding of the actual situation. In the long run however, it doesn't matter if people write Honda off, it won't change anything. Like I said, it is what it is, and I've said it over and over, they'll get it right, I know they can get it done by around Suzuka. Maybe not enough to win races, but definitely enough to not be embarrassed by lesser teams.
I remember asking this before but is this an informed statement or just a hunch or optimistic hope from a fan?
Does it matter? I'm just some random internet nobody with a penchant for CFD, and wrenching on Hondas. What I say doesn't matter, if I'm right I'm right, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Another generalized statement:
Combustion CFD is probably more important than the dyno. Developing and validating the simulations, and getting good correlation with experiments is worth far more than getting numbers on the dyno through trial and error. Getting your simulation at top level increases the speed of development so a lot of work goes on behind the scenes to validate the combustion modeling. So even if it doesn't bring improvements to the track right away, it lays the foundation for future developments. As far as I know this is the area where Honda is finally getting to a respectable level, this is why I'm confident about what they can achieve. Things have to progress in a logical order, that's why it seems like they're lost, they're not clueless, there's a lot of brilliant engineers, they just need tools in order to express their skills.

People have short memories, they forget the stink that was raised by Red Bull in 2015 over what seemed to others as a step backward, only for them to take a giant leap forward the following year. Now it's Honda's turn to go through growing pains before they can take the next step. People want results yesterday, and think it's hopeless if they don't see the results in their unrealistic time frames.
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ziggy
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Joined: 19 Nov 2012, 22:05

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 20:48


Does it matter? I'm just some random internet nobody with a penchant for CFD, and wrenching on Hondas. What I say doesn't matter, if I'm right I'm right, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Another generalized statement:
Combustion CFD is probably more important than the dyno. Developing and validating the simulations, and getting good correlation with experiments is worth far more than getting numbers on the dyno through trial and error. Getting your simulation at top level increases the speed of development so a lot of work goes on behind the scenes to validate the combustion modeling.

While this is true to some extent, such thinking can be dangerous. There was a post in this thread a while back talking about the internal combustion process still being a huge mystery for the engineers and also that there is still a huge potential for IC engines. Thats why it's so hard to simulate the combustion process, because it is still not understood.

And it doesen't matter what is more important, what does matter is what is bringing you forward. If it's trial and error, so be it. In the modern F1 you have to consider all the ways and paths, not ignore some paths just because someone thinks it brings nothing. You have to be very open minded, so to say. If you have to get Andy Cowell on board, so be it :wink:

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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True to a total extent, while combustion chemistry is not fully understood, and simulating all the species propagation is still difficult even for combustion chemists(even the ones that are developing the fuel), the modeling itself is not too concerned with 10^18 species but around 10 or 12 main reaction groups. If your models can accurately describe experimental results in a wide variety of conditions it's huge. It cuts down the trial and error process, it allows you to see combustion in more clarity than any other way, because with your simulations you can see in time scales that the naked eye can't. If you have good model correlation with experiments you can see combustion reactions in pico second scales.

You can try out new combustion strategies, new stratification mixtures, alter pistons, heads, cylinder ports, valve seat angles, spray patterns, injection timing, system back pressures, MAP, without having to touch any raw materials. Think of how much time is saved when you can make a virtual power unit, instead of having to manufacture countless physical iterations, then build the actual power unit and have it be 96% in line with your simulations. Such numbers are already possible without Honda sized budgets, imagine what you can do with the resources of the largest engine manufacturer on the planet.
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drunkf1fan
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Joined: 20 Apr 2015, 03:34

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 20:48

As far as I know this is the area where Honda is finally getting to a respectable level, this is why I'm confident about what they can achieve. Things have to progress in a logical order, that's why it seems like they're lost, they're not clueless, there's a lot of brilliant engineers, they just need tools in order to express their skills.

People have short memories, they forget the stink that was raised by Red Bull in 2015 over what seemed to others as a step backward, only for them to take a giant leap forward the following year. Now it's Honda's turn to go through growing pains before they can take the next step. People want results yesterday, and think it's hopeless if they don't see the results in their unrealistic time frames.
The problem with all that is that Honda said the 2015 engine had good power 'on paper', and the 2016 engine they kept saying was a big step forward in power, I seem to remember them making statements like matching the power of the Merc 2015 on paper.

Quite aside from the fact that combustion is only one part of the engine and if everything else keeps failing it's rather irrelevant if the ICE is producing the required power or not, more power, more heat, higher exhaust temps, more to be harvested via the mgu-h is imo, likely to reduce reliability from the turbo.

We also don't know what Honda think is good power or a good step. The new combustion design could bring with it, 0.3 seconds a lap and still leave them 1.5 seconds short of where they need to be. At this stage I think it's entirely foolish to hear Honda say they think they have something good on paper and take that at all seriously. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me 364 times, shame on me doesn't describe it. Honda need to stop talking about upgrades and how much they think they are bringing, bring the minimum second they need from a 'big step' and then say, we did it. Don't say "we think we have something really good coming", then bring 0.3 seconds, then have 3 upgrades in a row fail for one car.

As for comparing it to Renault, aside from the fact it's a completely different situation, the Renault engine wasn't remotely close to as bad as Honda, completely on a different level of bad. Likewise Renault have been involved in F1 consistently and had a recently good enough engine to win multiple titles, basically we have some level of belief that Renault can turn it around, Honda doesn't inspire that same confidence or belief that they can do the same. RBR in 2015 had 187 points, they were 4th in the title that year, they had only 4 retirements and 1 DNS, with 3 podiums...... half way through the season Mclaren have 8 retirements, 2 DNS, one points finish, 2 points and are dead last in the constructors.

If Honda have the kind of improvement Renault had between 2015 and 2016, then Mclaren will be looking at around 10 points in the constructors next year and going for 8 retirements in the whole season rather than half a season.

Red Bull created a stink because Renault were either going to buy a team or pull out of F1, they made a stink publicly to get Renault to decide, nothing else. RBR needed them pulling out and finding a new engine or they needed them to commit ASAP so they increased investment in the engine, they achieved the latter. Renault massively increased funding for the engine in 2016, have Honda done the same or is it the same team plodding along with no changes? Likewise RBR were competitive in terms of points, getting a decent championship finish, they just weren't competing for the title, they weren't anywhere near the situation Mclaren and Honda find themselves in, the comparison is utterly ridiculous.

Singabule
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017, 07:47

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Mudflap wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 19:28
What are the chances that Honda engineers are just completely exhausted and just can't get it together?

Think about the japanese work culture, surely they have been putting in insanely long hour for the past few years, do you think it's possible that they just burnt out?

It's not hard to see how the combination of extreme pressure, repeated failures etc can really affect even a very emotionally stable person.

I am pretty sure Honda have all the tools and knowledge needed to put together a decent engine and after 3+ years they shouldn't be lacking the experience either.
I used to work at an japanese manufacturer in Asia, and i can tell you the working hours is just too long, and i have experience sleeping at my desk so that i dont have to constantly shut down my computer. After that im hospitalized and resigned that following month :lol:

wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Big Mangalhit wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 17:29
Plus there is the rumours that sauber can't extract 100% of ferrari pu because of cooling and detuning to make them more reliable to finish the season using only 4 units.
A point to be made here is that Ferrari strengthened the 2017 power unit to cope with the extra G-forces the new cars can generate. Sauber's are the 2016 PUs, so maybe they can't be pushed as much because of the strength factor, maybe to the extent it limits how hard they can run the PU in the high G corners, thus slowing them down and costing a lot of lap time.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Suppose you bring an update, and it provides you 10kW at the crank, but an extra 25kW at the turbine that's ~30kW extra power compounded, that alone is worth .5 per lap. Honda is behind but not as far back as you think, considering what they need to improve. Consider that they could have helped Honda if they were really that far back but left them to their own devices. Brawn and company know what the power units are capable of, if they refused to give Honda help then the truth is they're not as bad as they appear.
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