Alternative engine configuration

[F1NAC]

alternative engine configuration revealed

The engine configuration requirement is confirmed to be:

2.5 Litre (or less) turbocharged V6, with a KW output greater than 640, which may be detuned to 530 in qualifying and race levels.
Total weight of the power unit being less than 135kg.
The FIA will impose no limits on Maximum RPM, engine durability or fuel flow.
The power unit solution will feature no hybrid power.
Hydraulics for the engine must be the same for all teams supplied.
The unit must be compatible with the standard F1 ECU and data logger.


Manufacturers expressing interest in candidacy to become sole supplier of the alternative engine supply will have freedoms around:

Number of turbochargers – 1 or 2
Turbocharges must be able to cope with the maximum boost pressure imposed by the FIA.
Freedom around cranktrain and valvetrain in all areas except crank length.
Freedom is give on the exhaust system, although a variable exhaust system is not permitted.

more: http://jwgrandprix.com/2015/11/16/formu ... ve-engine/

[Facts Only]

So a minimum weight less than the current 1.6's to offset the extra fuel required and a FIA boost limit to reign them back in once Ferrari/Mercedes/Renault/Honda start screaming about them being unfairly advantaged. Also only a single supplier allowed so current engine suppliers couldn't swap over if it turned out to be a faster package.

I'' not sure where I stand on this one, could be a lifeline for smaller/new teams like the DFV was but could also wreak havoc with arguments over performance parity going on for years.

I wonder who has the current infrastructure to put a bid together? Cosworth certainly, Ilmor, Judd and AER Perhaps. TMG on a wildcard might bid. I doubt that the FIA will award it to a start up company, I'm sure it will be an established supplier.

I also wonder if they will allow an OEM to bankroll and have there name on it? How would Merc/Ren/Hon feel if for instance one of the Korean car makers came in and had there name on the engine? Will the FIA even allow it to be branded?

[PlatinumZealot]

The horsepower (860hp) will be on par with what is there now in the Mercedes engine, but it will be too low when the FIA introduces the rule to increase horsepower to 1000bhp.

No hybrid from the engine supplier? Or no hybrid period? I hope that at least KERs is kept on somehow..

Did they mention the 100kg Fuel limit?

I think BMW or Nissan will bite. Illien is interested but he doesn't have the pockets to deal with FIA's B.S unless he brings in a sponsor... (Chevy or Ford?)

[gruntguru]

The spec is pretty loose. You could base this on an existing design - even an old turbo-era engine like the Honda RA-168e could meet the spec.

[wuzak]

I also wonder if they will allow an OEM to bankroll and have there name on it? How would Merc/Ren/Hon feel if for instance one of the Korean car makers came in and had there name on the engine? Will the FIA even allow it to be branded?

OEMs not allowed.

[bill shoe]

What was the FIA's intended price range for this engine? Something like 8 million Euro or roughly $10 million? This is much more than the cost of a current Indycar lease, why? I would think there would be many sportscar and Indycar engine companies who could get the job done on a technical level, I guess the trick is to have the financial stability to confidently pay all the bills until the contracts and payments start trickling in from F1 team customers. And admittedly, collecting from them will be very difficult because roughly speaking the part of the grid that will need an alternative engine instead of a manufacturer engine is precisely the part of the grid that is famous for not paying bills on time or at all. So maybe I've just answered my own question about why the cost is so high...

[wuzak]

What was the FIA's intended price range for this engine? Something like 8 million Euro or roughly $10 million? This is much more than the cost of a current Indycar lease, why? I would think there would be many sportscar and Indycar engine companies who could get the job done on a technical level, I guess the trick is to have the financial stability to confidently pay all the bills until the contracts and payments start trickling in from F1 team customers. And admittedly, collecting from them will be very difficult because roughly speaking the part of the grid that will need an alternative engine instead of a manufacturer engine is precisely the part of the grid that is famous for not paying bills on time or at all. So maybe I've just answered my own question about why the cost is so high...

$6m was the aim, I think.

Indy car suppliers lose money on their engines. Honda absorb the cost and Ilmore are compensated by Chevy, I guess.

[wuzak]

The spec is pretty loose. You could base this on an existing design - even an old turbo-era engine like the Honda RA-168e could meet the spec.

Except that it is too heavy.

[Cold Fussion]

What does 'may be detuned to 530 kW' really mean? Does this mean your power is at the mercy of the FIA?

[FW17]

What does 'may be detuned to 530 kW' really mean? Does this mean your power is at the mercy of the FIA?

Obviously.

This is a FIA/FOM gun held to the current engine manufacturers. 640 and 530 KW is probably the current range of performance difference between the engine manufacturers.

Also the demand is for an engine with at least 640 KW; surprising that without a fuel flow and engine durability limit these engines could be really fun to watch.


I somehow think this will happen considering the Ferrari Veto and the Red Bull rejections. Could be even Red Bull funded.

I was surprised to see that FIA has not invoked the fuel tender that it was planning as an immediate face saving exercise.

[Facts Only]

I also wonder if they will allow an OEM to bankroll and have there name on it? How would Merc/Ren/Hon feel if for instance one of the Korean car makers came in and had there name on the engine? Will the FIA even allow it to be branded?

OEMs not allowed.

Where does it say that? I havent seen it in any articles, or has the FIA stated it somewhere else?

As an aside, it was rumoured that was what PURE were attempting to do (specifically find a Korean OEM to bankroll the project and put their name on it)

[wuzak]

I also wonder if they will allow an OEM to bankroll and have there name on it? How would Merc/Ren/Hon feel if for instance one of the Korean car makers came in and had there name on the engine? Will the FIA even allow it to be branded?

OEMs not allowed.

Where does it say that? I havent seen it in any articles, or has the FIA stated it somewhere else?

As an aside, it was rumoured that was what PURE were attempting to do (specifically find a Korean OEM to bankroll the project and put their name on it)

http://www.fia.com/file/36345/download?token=5PjfEkO3

Appendix 1:

C. The candidate declares to be entirely independent of a major car manufacturer.

[wuzak]

Ostensibly this is to help prevent the smaller teams from folding.

However, those same time spend several times the cost of a PU on chassis and aero.

And the biggest independent, Red Bull, spends several times what they do.

[matt21]

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... s_v2_1.pdf

But it doesn´t say that a F1 team (e.g. Red Bull) can fund the engine.

And what does independence mean? Are you allowed to develop engines under an OEM name for other series like Ilmor for Indycar?

Let´s look at available engines:
Ilmor Indycar 2.2L
Cosworth Nissan LMP 3L
Cosworth F1 1.6L
AER P60 2.0L (assumed)

[wuzak]

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... s_v2_1.pdf

But it doesn´t say that a F1 team (e.g. Red Bull) can fund the engine.

And what does independence mean? Are you allowed to develop engines under an OEM name for other series like Ilmor for Indycar?

Let´s look at available engines:
Ilmor Indycar 2.2L
Cosworth Nissan LMP 3L
Cosworth F1 1.6L
AER P60 2.0L (assumed)

The idea is that the engine is made to contract to the FIA and is not influenced by the teams.

Basically, it is a spec engine. A step towards a spec series.