Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

Well seeing as how the system is probably operating ~400V, to produce 120kW means 300 amps of current, you're not getting something commercial to be that small unless you're using rare earth permanent magnets in concentric layers, and unique geometric motion to get that kind of current. I don't know what your experience is with 3 phase generators but commonly they're not small devices that fit neatly into the V of an engine. Like I said a lot of this technology is taken for granted because of how secretive it is.

Any wires are probably made of silver, and other needless things.

[ringo]

That may be the case, but it's still dificult to see how one can come up with the cost of the system from being aware of the materials. Materials are usually the lesser of the costs. Man hours are the bulk of costs in Formula 1.

[wuzak]

I don't know what your experience is with 3 phase generators but commonly they're not small devices that fit neatly into the V of an engine. Like I said a lot of this technology is taken for granted because of how secretive it is.

Commonly 3 phase industrial motors don't rev to 125,000rpm.

[ENGINE TUNER]

I thought lift and coast was just when they're neither braking or accelerating. Hence the coast.

As soon as the driver lifts off the throttle the KERS goes directly into regen mode and thus induces braking on the rear axle. The fact that they are not just saving fuel while lifting and coasting but also refilling the batteries is why it has become a much more prominent tactic in the hybrid era. When you see the rear "rain" light flash at the end of the straights they are Lifting and coasting with regen. What I wonder is if they can leave the DRS open while L&C. We've seen a couple drivers manually "disengage" the DRS by way of steering wheel button, but it seems to me that you'd want to L&C with the DRS open for less aero braking while coasting.

I wonder if any team will be bold enough to get rid of the outboard rear brakes and go inboard with them, is that within the rules? Lower unsprung(and maybe total weight), better aero, less rotating mass(if they can make de with 1 rear rotor), there would be a great advantage to it if possible.

[ENGINE TUNER]

Can any energy be harvested from MGU-H during breaking?
I assume teams keep trothlebodies open during breaking and compressor keeps pumping air into the engine. Is this air compressed enough by the engine to keep turbo spinning and eliminate turbo lag? Or maybe compressed so much there is enough energy to harvest?

Yes, max TERS(mguh) regen during (engine) braking. Throttles fully open, fuel cut, wastegate closed TERS on maximum regen.

[wuzak]

I thought lift and coast was just when they're neither braking or accelerating. Hence the coast.

As soon as the driver lifts off the throttle the KERS goes directly into regen mode and thus induces braking on the rear axle. The fact that they are not just saving fuel while lifting and coasting but also refilling the batteries is why it has become a much more prominent tactic in the hybrid era. When you see the rear "rain" light flash at the end of the straights they are Lifting and coasting with regen. What I wonder is if they can leave the DRS open while L&C. We've seen a couple drivers manually "disengage" the DRS by way of steering wheel button, but it seems to me that you'd want to L&C with the DRS open for less aero braking while coasting.

I wonder if any team will be bold enough to get rid of the outboard rear brakes and go inboard with them, is that within the rules? Lower unsprung(and maybe total weight), better aero, less rotating mass(if they can make de with 1 rear rotor), there would be a great advantage to it if possible.

When the rain light flashes it is often the case that the MGUH has stopped feeding the MGUK and thus less power is driving the car and the speed reduces.

[godlameroso]

I don't know what your experience is with 3 phase generators but commonly they're not small devices that fit neatly into the V of an engine. Like I said a lot of this technology is taken for granted because of how secretive it is.

Commonly 3 phase industrial motors don't rev to 125,000rpm.

Very true, in fact which generator do you know besides these that operate at such a speed?

[ENGINE TUNER]

When the rain light flashes it is often the case that the MGUH has stopped feeding the MGUK and thus less power is driving the car and the speed reduces.

Did I imply something different? Please excuse me if I did.

If the KERS is in regen mode it would then make sense that the TERS is not feeding the KERS. Both would be feeding the ES. I think there is something about "negative torque" in the regs in regard to the "rain" light.

Under what conditions (other than a specialized "wastegate open" qual mode) would the TERS stop feeding the KERS at WOT?

[ENGINE TUNER]

I don't know what your experience is with 3 phase generators but commonly they're not small devices that fit neatly into the V of an engine. Like I said a lot of this technology is taken for granted because of how secretive it is.

Commonly 3 phase industrial motors don't rev to 125,000rpm.

Very true, in fact which generator do you know besides these that operate at such a speed?

aren't they geared down? the regs allow them to be

[bergie88]

Commonly 3 phase industrial motors don't rev to 125,000rpm.

Very true, in fact which generator do you know besides these that operate at such a speed?

aren't they geared down? the regs allow them to be

For the MGU-K it is allowed, for the MGU-H I'm not sure. If I remember correctly the MGU-H, turbine and compressor should rotate around the same axis, in which the MGU-H can be geared by a planetary gear set for example.

[sosic2121]

I thought lift and coast was just when they're neither braking or accelerating. Hence the coast.

Yes, using the aero to slow the car.

But in the current era it would also be used to charge the battery via the MGUK.

I also thought lift and coast is used to save the fuel and brakes

[noname]

For the MGU-K it is allowed, for the MGU-H I'm not sure. If I remember correctly the MGU-H, turbine and compressor should rotate around the same axis, in which the MGU-H can be geared by a planetary gear set for example.

It is allowed for MGUH as well, some were even considered this path. In the end everyone is using MGU rotating with the same speed as turbine and compressor. You would have to find space and carry extra weight, if you would go with gearbox. And few other drawbacks.

[godlameroso]

If anything it's geared up, in other words the turbine and compressor produce max power at less than 125,000rpm, and the MGUH is over driven to its max velocity. This gives the MGU-H more torque to drive the turbo, but less torque to harvest. I believe Honda tried the inverse, that is, have a turbo that spins faster than the MGU-H.

Also lift and coast does save fuel, but it also extends the braking phase giving more time to harvest. Again not something Mercedes was doing a whole lot in 2016.

[PlatinumZealot]

Are you saying that a third of the engine cost is the MUG-H?

How else will you make an electric motor generator be so small and so powerful, and deal in such a hostile environment of temperature extremes, unless you're using extremely exotic materials and techniques to fabricate them?

Ok. Hmm. "facts only" would be the perfect person to validate this. Let us demarc the motor and the mguh system (motor controller and cooling etc)

[PlatinumZealot]

Well seeing as how the system is probably operating ~400V, to produce 120kW means 300 amps of current, you're not getting something commercial to be that small unless you're using rare earth permanent magnets in concentric layers, and unique geometric motion to get that kind of current. I don't know what your experience is with 3 phase generators but commonly they're not small devices that fit neatly into the V of an engine. Like I said a lot of this technology is taken for granted because of how secretive it is.

Any wires are probably made of silver, and other needless things.

400 volts is regular everday stuff. I would be impressed knowing it is much much higher than that. I think 400 volts is considered lowI voltage too.