Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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godlameroso
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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The regulations limit voltage to 1KV, do you suppose the MGU-H controller works as a step down transformer en route to the inverter to bring voltage to system level?

I don't know exactly what voltage they use. I know the Tesla cars operate at 600V, I saw numbers tossed around here suggesting system voltage was in the 400-500V range.
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noname
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godlameroso wrote:Well seeing as how the system is probably operating ~400V, to produce 120kW means 300 amps of current, you're not getting something commercial to be that small unless you're using rare earth permanent magnets in concentric layers, and unique geometric motion to get that kind of current. I don't know what your experience is with 3 phase generators but commonly they're not small devices that fit neatly into the V of an engine. Like I said a lot of this technology is taken for granted because of how secretive it is.
It is not so secretive anymore. In every plane you will find machines not far from F1 is using, and automotive working hard on electrification made them more easily available than few years back, with prices dropping down. What's been state of the art in F1 at the begining if V6 era, now is being on the way to the market.

Power density is respectable, so those machines are quite compact.
https://www.calnetix.com/electric-magne ... generators

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godlameroso
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Interesting.

https://www.calnetix.com/system-integration

Their 100kW model looks to be about 14kg and spins to 65,000 rpm, but that's quite a bit heavier than an F1 unit, which weighs as little as 4kg, with almost twice the speed.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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presumably that would be 100 kW continuous - and it says 5 kg/11.2 lb and 750cc for this
(Calnetix's motorgenerator machine section - thanks here for a good find, noname)
F1's 120 kW is not continuous
https://www.calnetix.com/electric-magne ... generators

rare earth machines were available even to the public from about 35 years ago
liquid cooling then enables huge power:size etc benefits (but has relatively few public domain applications so is not so C.O.T.S)
afaik the big step since has been reduced limitations of power electronics - ie increasing power capability of ideal waveform/frequency excitation

rather like the power electronics advances being the real (and imo rather tardy) enabler eg of wind turbine generation and modern grid use
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 30 Dec 2016, 22:52, edited 1 time in total.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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F1 mguh probably on ball bearings because of the heat and transient load i supposed. I have never seen a magnetic bearing motor in the flesh. So can anyone enlighten?
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noname
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:F1 mguh probably on ball bearings (...)
https://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/about/fs14grc.html

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godlameroso
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PlatinumZealot wrote:F1 mguh probably on ball bearings because of the heat and transient load i supposed. I have never seen a magnetic bearing motor in the flesh. So can anyone enlighten?
If they are using roller bearings they'd likely be ceramic.
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Edis
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 16:58

Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
wuzak wrote:
godlameroso wrote: I don't know what your experience is with 3 phase generators but commonly they're not small devices that fit neatly into the V of an engine. Like I said a lot of this technology is taken for granted because of how secretive it is.
Commonly 3 phase industrial motors don't rev to 125,000rpm.
Very true, in fact which generator do you know besides these that operate at such a speed?
There are commercial microturbines in the 100 kW class that operates at 60000-70000 rpm with life expectancies of 60,000 hours, so a high speed alternator for F1 use shouldn't be a major design problem.

Edis
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:F1 mguh probably on ball bearings because of the heat and transient load i supposed. I have never seen a magnetic bearing motor in the flesh. So can anyone enlighten?
If they are using roller bearings they'd likely be ceramic.
Typically you use angular contact ball bearings in applications like this, can be ceramic or tool steel, or a combination with tool steel bearing races and ceramic balls.

roon
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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I have an idea regarding the Mercedes works team's charge air plumbing. It's been rumored for some time now that the W07 & previous chassis have an air-to-water intercooler installed within the monocoque, forward of the engine. I have yet to see photos of this charge cooler, nor any photos of the backside of the monocoque which might show how it is installed. I gladly welcome anyone to post such photos if they exist.

Regardless, the proximity of the fuel tank to the intercooler in such an arrangement causes me to think that something more could be going on. Might they be piping charge air directly into, and out of, the fuel tank?

If so, it might present an opportunity to combine fuel vapor & charge air. Introducing fuel vapor present in the fuel tank to the charge air could be a way of providing extra fuel to the power unit beyond what is measure by the fuel flow meter. Which could explain some of the Mercedes works team's horsepower advantages. I imagine such a system acting as an equivalent to port fuel injection, which is outlawed, working in conjunction with the direct injection system & turbulent jet ignition (TJI).

The details of such an arrangement I can only guess at. Could the entire fuel tank be used as a pressure vessel, charged by the compressor and the vapor pressure of heated fuel? Would you need actively metered control of vapor ingestion? Or would a carburetor-like device suffice?

My reading of the rules regarding the fuel system, fuel tank, and engine operation leads me to believe that such a design could be legal. Interested to hear others' thoughts.

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FW17
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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roon wrote:I have an idea regarding the Mercedes works team's charge air plumbing. It's been rumored for some time now that the W07 & previous chassis have an air-to-water intercooler installed within the monocoque, forward of the engine. I have yet to see photos of this charge cooler, nor any photos of the backside of the monocoque which might show how it is installed. I gladly welcome anyone to post such photos if they exist.

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Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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roon wrote:I have an idea regarding the Mercedes works team's charge air plumbing. It's been rumored for some time now that the W07 & previous chassis have an air-to-water intercooler installed within the monocoque, forward of the engine. I have yet to see photos of this charge cooler, nor any photos of the backside of the monocoque which might show how it is installed. I gladly welcome anyone to post such photos if they exist.

Regardless, the proximity of the fuel tank to the intercooler in such an arrangement causes me to think that something more could be going on. Might they be piping charge air directly into, and out of, the fuel tank?

If so, it might present an opportunity to combine fuel vapor & charge air. Introducing fuel vapor present in the fuel tank to the charge air could be a way of providing extra fuel to the power unit beyond what is measure by the fuel flow meter. Which could explain some of the Mercedes works team's horsepower advantages. I imagine such a system acting as an equivalent to port fuel injection, which is outlawed, working in conjunction with the direct injection system & turbulent jet ignition (TJI).

The details of such an arrangement I can only guess at. Could the entire fuel tank be used as a pressure vessel, charged by the compressor and the vapor pressure of heated fuel? Would you need actively metered control of vapor ingestion? Or would a carburetor-like device suffice?

My reading of the rules regarding the fuel system, fuel tank, and engine operation leads me to believe that such a design could be legal. Interested to hear others' thoughts.
It's a fun theory but it's impossible due to safety regulations. The fuel system has to be closed (and pulling all the air trough it suggest it isn't). Even the breather has to have its own outlet.

It would be easier to sneak in an extra injector inside a air mass meter or something.

And besides that, with all the data from the ECU available to the FIA, any extra fuel or clever trick would be noticed instantly.

roon
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Joined: 17 Dec 2016, 19:04

Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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Re: Jolle. How would fuel vapor present in the charge piping, or combustion of it in the cylinders, be represented by the ECU?

Re: FW17. Thank you.

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ringo
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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Looking on the size of that intercooler. The mercedes is probably twin cooled.
Anyhow, the williams clearly has a power advantage over the other engined cars, and the force india, and they have different intercooling systems from the works team, so the power advantage of mercedes is not necessarily some trick oxygen enrichment.
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FW17
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

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ringo wrote:Looking on the size of that intercooler. The mercedes is probably twin cooled.
Anyhow, the williams clearly has a power advantage over the other engined cars, and the force india, and they have different intercooling systems from the works team, so the power advantage of mercedes is not necessarily some trick oxygen enrichment.
I thought it was small too, however it is quiet hard to ascertain its size.

Height is quiet easy to see.
Width can be assumed to be width of the chassis to be at least 640 mm, this could be about 600 mm
Length is tricky as the have gone for a configuration where it is battery intercooler then engine at the floor, considering the length of the cable which is hanging around which has to reach the PCU located in the battery pack is about 300 mm, that would be the length of the intercooler. If the PCU is located above the battery pack this would mean the a length of intercooler at 450 mm as the cable could be running on top of the intercooler

So the size would be pretty decent at 300-450 x 600 x 150 mm (I believe the oil tank used by customers and works teams are different to accommodate intercooler

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