KERS revs up

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

KERS revs up

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This subject has been

discussed a bit all over the place on F1T (like here, and here and perhaps elsewhere also, so perhaps Tomba and Principessa could do some creative thread reorganizing) ... but I couldn't decide where this would belong specifically so I muddied the waters more and started a new thread. Sorry.

Anyway, transmission specialist company XTRAC and Torotrak, a full-toroidal traction-drive transmission technology specialist company, have joined forces in developing "new, highly efficient, mechanical kinetic energy recovery systems (for F1) … technology also applicable to road cars." There's no reason for me to paraphrase their press releases and websites, they're doing a good job explaining what they're up to by themselves, so check it out.

Torotrak press release
Torotrak main page
Xtrac main page

http://www.torotrak.com/NR/rdonlyres/1E ... dXtrac.jpg

There are also other operators in the field, I can vaguely remember a Cambridge startup by a couple of ex Renault engineers and I've also stumbled on these guys.

Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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Thanks for the links checkered - this also relates to the Regenerative Systems thread on which Ciro and I suggested the extreme technology of flywheels as energy storage systems might have an application to future, green F1 regulations . These articles show the progress and developement of integrating a high speed flywheel via a multi-wheel -variable-roller CVT system to input into an F1 transmission - also suggesting the application to high end sportscars and small displacement, economical road cars as low carbon foot print hybrids.

Regenerative Systems Thread:
viewtopic.php?t=3619

riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

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This whole thing about making F1 "green" is asinine. Is Max really stupid enough to believe F1 will be more exciting if the cars are more "environmentally sensitive"? Obviously, he's just another bureaucrat, who's been in power far too long, surrounded by sychophant yes men, and he's out of touch with reality (think George Bush and Hillary Clinton). He's actually buying into this whole global warming propaganda nonsense, being promoted world wide by a bunch of anti-capitalist, nanny state socialists. Here's a tip to Mr. Mosley: Environmentalist kooks don't watch F1 racing. So why are you trying to appeal to them?

Real racing fans want to see competitive, exciting racing. Say what you will about NASCAR being a bunch of hicks and rednecks, driving outdated, unsophisticated, 3000 lb sedans in a circle. Bottom line: They fill the stands, and put millions more people in front of their TV's, 32 weekends a year.

Look, I'm an engineer. I appreciate the technology aspect of F1 more than most people. But why force teams to spend a bunch of money to develop a mechanical device that no one can actually see doing it's job or improving the racing? F1 teams like Toyota are spending $200 million per year to run at the back of the grid. Toyota sells about 9 million cars per year, so that adds about $20 average to every car they sell just to support their F1 race team. If I was a Toyota shareholder, I'd be ticked off.

Besides, high energy flywheels are a serious safety issue in a crash. That's why they're not used on production vehicles. Really, flywheel hybrids are not a new concept. The idea's been around for decades, and has been evaluated and rejected by every automaker in the world on safety grounds. There will be no "trickle down" of this technology to the average passenger vehicle, so why bother?

Here's a link to a start-up company wasting millions on this boondoggle:
http://www.afstrinity.com/extr-tech.html

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checkered
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When I started the

thread, I decided just to make a note of the development neutrally without going into the sensibility of kinetic energy recovery systems in F1. I've expressed my doubts about such contraptions before (In the regen systems thread Carlos mentioned, for example - viewtopic.php?t=3619 ), starting from the fact that car companies don't manufacture (the unfortunately named) hybrids with KERS either - while they fully had/have the option to do so. On the other hand there has been information presented (by Ciro) that such systems may have evolved in a safer direction.

Don't get caught in sound bytes. All things sustainable aren't "green". I'd settle for "environmentally rational" any day instead for the touchy feely "environmentally sensitive" - too bad we're actually not anywhere near rational either and sensitive is actually worse, implying that we "feel" for any damage we cause but can't correct it altogether anyway. You're right, in many ways it is asinine. On the company Max keeps, though, I'd hardly call car and oil execs "sychophant yes men" as if he was the dictator in that equation ... think he'd consider things twice before contradicting that bunch in any meaningful way.

On global warming (another unfortunate term for a host of induced phenomena) we'll just have to disagree, I think much of the science is solid within an acceptable margin of error. Of course such a subject will attract a fair share of charlatans, but the carbon emission related energy industries, especially in the US, have done little to ease the confusion with all the stuff their lobbyists have been spewing at and through the current administration. If there was nothing to it, it'd have been in their interest to invest heavily in environmental sciences to disprove the ill effects of atmospheric CO2 accumulation. Apparently, there's no incentive to do so. Not to mention that in the G8 summit, Bush actually ended up underwriting a statement calling for a 50% reduction in CO2 emissions after stonewalling for years on end. But of course that's not to say that one of his actions would be more logical than the other, as you noted ... :)

But since you're very critical, I'd like to ask if you can come up with arguments for or against another idea discussed sporadically here: Would you think a hydraulic drive train/transmission is possible in F1 and or in cars generally? Obviously, it could be very efficient compared to a completely mechanical one but do you see it as feasible? The forces involved are immense and I'm worried about the safety aspect. A failure in a hydraulic conduit might send fluid flying at an unfathomable intensity and I've heard of cases where heavy machine operators have been seriously hurt as a result.

Getting hydraulic oil shot in one's soft tissues can force amputations because of the toxicity/inflammation even if it doesn't hit the vitals. Could it be made safe enough?

Here's a link to another upstart "F1" flywheel company that was discussed earlier, btw ... http://www.flybridsystems.com/

riff_raff
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

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checkered,

"Would you think a hydraulic drive train/transmission is possible in F1 and or in cars generally? "

Absolutely! It's being done here in the US by Eaton and Ford: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/technology/420f04024.pdf

In fact, of all of the hybrid concepts I've seen, it's the only one that makes sense. It can be added to any internal combustion engine powered vehicle with a minimum of fuss, it is cost effective, it is reliable and durable, it uses proven and existing technology, it can capture and reuse up to 85% of braking energy, and it provides very impressive gains in urban driving cycle fuel consumption. It does things that battery hybrids can only dream about. It costs less than half of a comparable battery hybrid system and yet provides much better fuel economy.

Ford may have their HLA (Hydraulic Launch Assist) system available on the F150 trucks as soon as 2009 model year. As for a hydraulic hybrid system in F1, I suppose it's possible, but I doubt it's going to happen.

As an aside, racing drivers have been practicing "kinetic energy" conservation and recovery with their driving technique for decades. All racers learn early on that the driver that carries the most speed (or momentum, or kinetic energy) through the corners will always be the fastest! Right?

:D

riff_raff
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

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checkered,

I took a look at that Flybrid Systems website. It says their F1 system is good for about 400kJ. That would give you about an extra 81hp (the transmission system is power-limited to 81hp) for 6.7 seconds, assuming no efficiency loss in the system, for an extra 24kg. Sounds pretty good.

Unfortunately though, putting that same 400kJ of energy back into the flywheel would require the same 6.7 seconds. How many F1 tracks have braking distances that require 6.7 seconds? None that I know of. So this particular "KERS" system sounds like it needs some more development work for F1 use.

Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re:

Post

riff_raff wrote: Unfortunately though, putting that same 400kJ of energy back into the flywheel would require the same 6.7 seconds. How many F1 tracks have braking distances that require 6.7 seconds? None that I know of. So this particular "KERS" system sounds like it needs some more development work for F1 use.
You are an engineer men, so picture this: in a 2 sec braking curve, the flywheel "absorbs" KE and start spinning. Then you accelerate in a straight -meanwhile the flywheel continues spinning, loosing only a little amount of KE- and in the next -let´s say- 2.5 sec braking you gain another bit of KE in the flywheel. At the end of a lap, you may have those 80HP/6.7s stored in your trunk :wink:
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: KERS revs up

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why not just recycle the exhaust energy instead a turbo charger would cost less to develop make for better racing provide extra power all the time with no need for a push to pass button. makes the engine more efficient and is much less of a gimick.

Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re:

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riff_raff wrote:This whole thing about making F1 "green" is asinine. Is Max really stupid enough to believe F1 will be more exciting if the cars are more "environmentally sensitive"? Obviously, he's just another bureaucrat, who's been in power far too long, surrounded by sychophant yes men, and he's out of touch with reality (think George Bush and Hillary Clinton). He's actually buying into this whole global warming propaganda nonsense, being promoted world wide by a bunch of anti-capitalist, nanny state socialists. Here's a tip to Mr. Mosley: Environmentalist kooks don't watch F1 racing. So why are you trying to appeal to them?

Real racing fans want to see competitive, exciting racing. Say what you will about NASCAR being a bunch of hicks and rednecks, driving outdated, unsophisticated, 3000 lb sedans in a circle. Bottom line: They fill the stands, and put millions more people in front of their TV's, 32 weekends a year.

Look, I'm an engineer. I appreciate the technology aspect of F1 more than most people. But why force teams to spend a bunch of money to develop a mechanical device that no one can actually see doing it's job or improving the racing? F1 teams like Toyota are spending $200 million per year to run at the back of the grid. Toyota sells about 9 million cars per year, so that adds about $20 average to every car they sell just to support their F1 race team. If I was a Toyota shareholder, I'd be ticked off.

Besides, high energy flywheels are a serious safety issue in a crash. That's why they're not used on production vehicles. Really, flywheel hybrids are not a new concept. The idea's been around for decades, and has been evaluated and rejected by every automaker in the world on safety grounds. There will be no "trickle down" of this technology to the average passenger vehicle, so why bother?

Here's a link to a start-up company wasting millions on this boondoggle:
http://www.afstrinity.com/extr-tech.html
WATCH THIS! Here is your info about the Carbon hoax:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVmk3lUYdPA

Chris

enkidu
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Joined: 20 May 2007, 09:26

Re: KERS revs up

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I've been saying that for years Chris....


Its a big big sham to be honest.... Also we all know carbon is not the problem because the more carbon in the world the faster plants grow to compensate. Now maybe the governments need to plant some trees instead of cutting down rain forrests??

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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Conceptual wrote:WATCH THIS! Here is your info about the Carbon hoax:
"An Alex Jones

film: Endgame, blueprint for global enslavement"? Watch out - black helicopters! Mind control waves are coming, get your tin foil ready! Hitler flown to an antarctic base in an occult-powered UFO and is plotting a comeback! Don't trust medicine, it could kill ya! Don't trust science, it could kill ya! Don't trust education, it could kill ya! Burn your library card, burn your money, they're laced with tracking devices! National parks are the brainchild of evil men! Trust no-one!

Wow, if there ever was an "evil World government", that'd just be the pitch to advance its insidious and destructive agenda. There's just no-one easier to control than someone that is incommunicative, cut off from support networks and scared witless. Quite a stretch to chart what this has to do with F1 making a go of increasing efficiency (in research and in function) by accommodating forms of energy recovery to existing technology. But that, of course, matters little if the end is nigh anyway, right?

Wait, I got it: The flywheels will be manufactured from highly concentrated carbon! Is there no end to the depravity of our shadowy puppet masters?
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

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checkered wrote:
Conceptual wrote:WATCH THIS! Here is your info about the Carbon hoax:
"An Alex Jones

film: Endgame, blueprint for global enslavement"? Watch out - black helicopters! Mind control waves are coming, get your tin foil ready! Hitler flown to an antarctic base in an occult-powered UFO and is plotting a comeback! Don't trust medicine, it could kill ya! Don't trust science, it could kill ya! Don't trust education, it could kill ya! Burn your library card, burn your money, they're laced with tracking devices! National parks are the brainchild of evil men! Trust no-one!

Wow, if there ever was an "evil World government", that'd just be the pitch to advance its insidious and destructive agenda. There's just no-one easier to control than someone that is incommunicative, cut off from support networks and scared witless. Quite a stretch to chart what this has to do with F1 making a go of increasing efficiency (in research and in function) by accommodating forms of energy recovery to existing technology. But that, of course, matters little if the end is nigh anyway, right?

Wait, I got it: The flywheels will be manufactured from highly concentrated carbon! Is there no end to the depravity of our shadowy puppet masters?
What an asswipe. Have you even SEEN this movie Checkered? Or are you simply a bigot that slams on things because you THINK that you already know everyhting?

My respect for your presence has now been diminished to ZERO. I didn't endorse Alex Jones, nor his movie, just the fact that Endgame points out the global-warming/anti-carbon belief is manufactured, purchased, programmed and then proclaimed truth without any real in-arguable points.

I guess that he hit a few too many of your "I'm a bigot" nerves for your liking?

Next time, just shut up, because you now look like a raving asshole.

Thanks,

Chris

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checkered
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Conceptual wrote:What an asswipe. Have you even SEEN this movie Checkered? Or are you simply a bigot that slams on things because you THINK that you already know everyhting?

My respect for your presence has now been diminished to ZERO. I didn't endorse Alex Jones, nor his movie, just the fact that Endgame points out the global-warming/anti-carbon belief is manufactured, purchased, programmed and then proclaimed truth without any real in-arguable points.

I guess that he hit a few too many of your "I'm a bigot" nerves for your liking?

Next time, just shut up, because you now look like a raving asshole.

Thanks,

Chris
Again, I don't see any

direct relation with this to KERS. Does the argumentation in this clip mean that energy recovery is in vain? Necessary? Even if CO2 concentrations didn't correlate with a set of phenomena collectively known as Global warming (which I don't believe), it would be nice to get more bang for the buck from engines.

I saw the clip, my comments were based on that content alone, it was provided and promoted "as is" to explain a "carbon hoax" by none other than yourself. I'm fully within my rights to go from there alone, in that I actually trusted your representation of the matter. If there are arguments that result from a clearly traceable trains of thought elsewhere in that movie, they weren't in evidence in that outtake. Basically it consisted of equating a series of concerts, various public figures and poorly referenced "scientific facts" for the purpose of illustrating opposition to correlating taxation with CO2 emissions and establishing a cap on those as part of some perceived larger scheme. Those parallels are of negligible importance compared with other causalities and ongoing research, if only because it didn't feature much of those. To top it all off, the clip featured someone phoning a call-in show of some kind and bewildering the organiser of the previously mentioned concerts by pestering him with loose notions on the working order of our planetary system.

Me not knowing everything is an acute condition aptly illustrated by my daily visits to F1T, for instance. In fact I appreciate the inquisitiveness of the human condition to such a degree that when there seems to be a perceivable hindrance to it, I probe it in some way to test those notions while trying not to forget a certain altruistic purpose of such actions. Respect is many a thing and the placement and nature of your "carbon hoax" post on the KERS thread I read as indicative of that. If I am not on my best behaviour on a thread that I started for a specific purpose, you can attribute my bigotry to that, as much as to anything else. It matters little as far as the effect is concerned whether you're aware of the context of your actions in such a regard or not. I'm not about to challenge your perception, or take responsibility for it.

Sincerely yours,
"Raving Asshole".
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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WhiteBlue
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Re: KERS revs up

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Raving asshole isn't the way I like arguments being conducted here. Those who do not respect the fellow users and resort to abuse and personal attack should re think their position. If they cannot do that it should be done for them by moderators.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Carlos
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Re: KERS revs up

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" I didn't endorse Alex Jones, nor his movie, just the fact that Endgame points out the global-warming/anti-carbon belief is manufactured, purchased, programmed and then proclaimed truth without any real in-arguable points." Chris

Chris, you did endorse the video clip from Alex Jones Endgame film as an authoritative reference to advance an argument, but it is only undocumented opinion, in addition you support the contents as the definitive truth on" the global-warming/anti-carbon belief is manufactured, purchased, programmed and then proclaimed truth without any real in-arguable points."

Yet at the same time you don't endorse Alex Jones, nor his movie? How does that work? It must be similar to being a little bit pregnant?

Name calling does you no credit, attack the post, not the poster.