What will come after the 2.4 V8?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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I think we all agree that push to pass kers is ridiculous, if it is to be regulated at all (which i dont see why it should be until it becomes too powerful- i.e. dangerous) it should only be on overall power output. Kers should be an extension of the engine power, not a gimmick.

Im undecided on fuel flow vs. fuel load, as fuel load promotes out and out efficency but regulated fuel flow could eliminate these fuel saving stints, that can only be a good thing...

The kers only in the pitlane isnt a useful at all, just another PR gimmick. It wont aid its development, which is the main reason for it being in F1 if im not mistaken.

My last point is about the whole lack of overtaking. Braking zones are the main place where the action happens usually, yet in F1 the braking zones are so short that it is almost impossible unless its a very long straight leading into a tight corner. To incerase overtaking why not just make the brake disc diameter smaller? Obviously we still have the over sensitive aero problem as well, but would this not help?

xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Technical working groups headed by Rory Byrne,Patrick Head and Gilles Simon have, according to reports in Motorsport-Total leaked that while nothing is decided yet, they are leaning towards a 1.6 liter Turbo with 3.0 bars of pressure giving around 650HP and 30 second bursts of KERS worth an additional 150hp. The green fig leaf would come from regulated fuel flow and perhaps a requirement that the cars travel in the pit lane using only their KERS, with the engine off.

On the chassis side, the concept is to embrace the downforce made by diffusers, somewhat like on ground effect cars of the past, and rely less on front wings. This would mean sidepods would need to stretch forward with the added benefit of extra side impact protection.


Holy Moses, is Byrne, Head and Simon reading this very thread or what, isn't this what one member in particular have preached rather frequently?

- 1.6 turbos with 2.0 Bar boost. (Some 1000 Hp at 12k Rpm and free fuel-flow.)
- Regulated fuel-flow. (50 cc/s would limit power to 650 Hp at a 28% efficiency.)
- Reduce front wing downforce. (Take it off completely?)

My modesty stops me short of revealing the identity of said member of course, eh WB? :wink:
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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ringo
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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The whole green thing is a gimmick. It get rediculous if the formula pivots around it.
It's turning out more like one of those Japanese obstacle course game shows. Too many gimmicks and variables.
This will be formula one post 2013:
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ringo
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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xpensive wrote:
Holy Moses, is Byrne, Head and Simon reading this very thread or what...
:wink:
Well if they're reading this, here's my proposal:

-1000hp natural gas turbine electric motor hybrid.
-Turbo shaft drive. Electric drive in slow turns transitioning to turbine power on turn exit, exhaust heat and Kinetic energy regeneration.
- Compressor pressure ratio limited.

Not sure about the aero rules. :)
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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The KERS is only 120 kW and twice the impotent 2009 formula. Rubbish in other words. KERS needs to be unlimited to make sense. Where is the incentive to be more efficient if the power is restricted. All teams will have the same KERS.

With fuel flow regulation only they will either achieve nothing or make all engines have the same consumption depending how low they set it. What kind of sense will that make? I thought we are going to have a meaningful competition for fuel efficiency.

With this formula competitive advantages will not come from the power train. It will remain an aero game. They might as well keep the V8 engines.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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WhiteBlue wrote:The KERS is only 120 kW and twice the impotent 2009 formula. Rubbish in other words. KERS needs to be unlimited to make sense. Where is the incentive to be more efficient if the power is restricted. All teams will have the same KERS.

With fuel flow regulation only they will either achieve nothing or make all engines have the same consumption depending how low they set it. What kind of sense will that make? I thought we are going to have a meaningful competition for fuel efficiency.

With this formula competitive advantages will not come from the power train. It will remain an aero game. They might as well keep the V8 engines.
Oh dear...

- 150 Hp of KERS for 30s is 110 kW and 3.3 MJ, far more than they can ever store over one lap.

- A 1.6 turbo with 2.0 Bar boost, has a potential power of 1000 Hp at 12 k, but with a 50cc/s fuel flow,
you limit that to 650 Hp at a 28% efficiency. I would say that's one helluva incentive to increase efficiency?

- I you ban the front wing and introduce a standard floor, aero-game is effectively over.
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tok-tokkie
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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I was in favour of a total fuel load restriction. But if a low maximum fuel flow rate is imposed then it will be a big incentive for increased efficiency as Xpensive states. It depends on what the max fuel flow rate is set at. If it is less than the current engines consume then efficiency will be rewarded. If frozen engine development is imposed then it is pretty meaningless - especially if 'equalisation' is allowed between the engines.

I don't understand why any restriction should be placed on KERS. Let that be the all out technical, strategic & tactical competition.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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xpensive wrote: - 150 Hp of KERS for 30s is 110 kW and 3.3 MJ, far more than they can ever store over one lap.

- A 1.6 turbo with 2.0 Bar boost, has a potential power of 1000 Hp at 12 k, but with a 50cc/s fuel flow,
you limit that to 650 Hp at a 28% efficiency. I would say that's one helluva incentive to increase efficiency?

- I you ban the front wing and introduce a standard floor, aero-game is effectively over.
I did not figure what the increase in time would do to the KERS energy. This will indeed make more sense if they go for a 3.3 MJ limit. You would definitely have to go to AWKERS to come anywhere near that value of energy. Still the push to pass control of accelerating torque is ludicrous. The breaking torque will have to be automatic dual torque. So why not do the acceleration as well.

If they run the pit lane electric only the cars will use the KERS motors as electric starters. That can make sense.

Regarding aero they have said that the emphasis will move from wings to the floor so that ground effect will become more important. This is simply a consequence of better aerodynamic efficiency. It does not say that they will have more standardized aero and break the strangle hold of the aerodynamicists on F1. They will simply go to a new set of configurations to perpetuate the game. With the new side impact protection the side pots will come further forward towards the front wheels and the floor area will increase.

With 1000 bhp engines restricted to 650 bhp by a fuel flow limit there would be an incentive to stay as close to the fuel flow limit as long as possible. It would promote wasting technologies like retarding the ignition to help the blown diffusor. If they allow movable aero devices the downforce will be increased to utilize the engine power as much as possible during part throttle phases of the race. It is all designed to increase the fuel consumption and not to decrease it. And you can bet the farm that the flow limits will not be very restrictive. They will make an optimistic prognosis how total fuel use will go down with a certain flow limit and in reality nothing will change much because the engineers will try to keep the fuel use close to the limit. It will be quite the same game the aerodynamicists have been playing with the downforce reductions for 20 years. You say the downforce is cut by 50% and by the time the new cars run it is at 95% of the old configuration. At the end of the year the downforce is bigger than before. Fuel flow limitation is a nice way to make it appear as if fuel use is reduced. In reality it is an incentive to waste as much as possible in the limit and use political power to set meaningless flow limits.

Only a total limit of race fuel is a true incentive to make the car go faster with less fuel. There would be no cheating with estimated fuel use. The limit is absolute and there would be an immediate reward of higher speed if you improve efficiency anywhere in the drive train or the chassis because you can go to a higher power setting than those who did not find the efficiency improvement.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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I think most engine-engineers will look at it this way;

"So, I've got a potentially 1000 Hp engine, but when the FIA gives me no more than 50 cc/s, or 1710 kW, of fuel to convert to mechanical power and my engine has a 28% efficiency, 480 kW (650 Hp) is all that I will get.
But hey, what if we could increase efficiency to 30%, then I've got 700 Hp!"


That's my kinda engineer anyway.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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747heavy
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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I think you will see that both ways total fuel used/fuel flow limit will benefit the car/team with better efficiency. One way or the other. If you set a total fuel limit, you encourage a "safe now- use/waste later" sort of mindset. With the fuel flow limit, you can´t just crank up boost when you have saved enough fuel towards the end of the race.
I think, the "electric drive" in pitlane thing, is a bit over the top, and will look rediculouse in TV.
AWKERS will make for even shorter braking distances, as it will be effectivly ABS, and there is not much the FIA can do against it. Not sure if this is a good thing.
If you have only RWKERS but a higher energy limit, you will promote more efficiency/better technology without the drawbacks. IMHO
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
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xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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I think you're missing the point here Jumbo, with a fuel-flow limit, you cannot "save" for the end of the race,
no matter how much fuel you have in the tank, your power will still be limited by the fuel-flow.

However a 1.6 turbo with a 2.0 Bar boost with a 50cc/s fuel-flow limit, could lead to funny engine characteristics,
when such an engine could in theory reach 650 Hp already at 7800 Rpm, still given the 28% efficiency from above
and the 2.0 Bar boost is available.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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747heavy
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Sorry - I think you misread my post Xpensive

>>>
If you set a total fuel limit, you encourage a "safe now- use/waste later" sort of mindset. With the fuel flow limit, you can´t just crank up boost when you have saved enough fuel towards the end of the race.
<<<

Because that is exactly my point
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Ooops...sorry Jumbo, guess we are in agreement then, more importantly, so are Rory Byrne, Patrick Head and Gilles Simon.

What they have in common? They are engineers... :lol:
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Gilles initially promoted a fixed fuel cap. I guess this is once again a compromise that is pushed by the non manufacturer teams. They have a vested interest to deny the manufacturers on going competitive advantages from fuel saving engine technologies.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Fuel flow limit is good. It is directly designed to restrict power and somewhat engine speed.
It's not so much an incentive for Consumption, but it reduces consumption anyway.

What's interesting is that any amount of fuel could be used on the weekend, but that is now based on the time the cars run for, not how much power they make.
Generally all teams will have the same amount of fuel at the race start.

Specific fuel consumption will virtually be the same, i don't see how much more efficient a Renault engine will be more than say a BMW engine.
Direct injection has a more critical role to play now though. So does fuel composition and turbo efficiency.

Patrick head probably is using his experiences of the turbo era to setup the regulations. He may well be fully aware of all the possible loopholes and is trying to tailor the rules to negate any forms of creativity the teams might try to use.

Well i think we can safely say now that the engine will be a L4. It's the easiest and cheapest route.
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