2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Shooty81]

According to F1 Insider, Honda and Ferrari want open development of engines next season and Merc is not against the idea.

Open development is the only cure to that kind of problems.

[alexx_88]

If I'd be Ferrari and Honda and heard that Merc was open to the idea, I'd be very scared!

It means that they think there's a lot of room to develop these PUs and, more importantly, are confident that they'll be able to develop faster than the others. That's worrying.

[ChrisF1]

If I'd be Ferrari and Honda and heard that Merc was open to the idea, I'd be very scared!

It means that they think there's a lot of room to develop these PUs and, more importantly, are confident that they'll be able to develop faster than the others. That's worrying.

Well with the extra year of development work that Mercedes did, you would think that their engineers have explored many avenues and written them off as dead ends, whilst Ferrari and Honda may yet have traveled those paths...

[PlatinumZealot]

"Using some of my calculators from a few turbo company's the turbo needs around 42HP to run the compressor and has about 60HP max left over based on the F1 fuel limit. This is based on some of the most efficient radial turbos of today."

This is essentially right but the size of the leftovers will vary depending how you cook the main course : in the ICE.

The forum debate about combustion strategies in the ICE has rumbled on for months, partly because of this reason ...

The compressor needs much much more than that to support 700 bhp. i did a small turbine project once and that little compressor could use as much as 70hp. That turbo was designed to deliver about 350 hp. So You can assume you need no more than about 20% in relation to the ICE horsepower to turn the compressor. So in this case to make 700 hp you need about 140hp max to turn the compressor in F1. it might be much lower because of better efficiency... say it could be as low as about 13% in relation to engine power so it could be in the region of 90 hp to 140hp.

[pgfpro]

"Using some of my calculators from a few turbo company's the turbo needs around 42HP to run the compressor and has about 60HP max left over based on the F1 fuel limit. This is based on some of the most efficient radial turbos of today."

This is essentially right but the size of the leftovers will vary depending how you cook the main course : in the ICE.

The forum debate about combustion strategies in the ICE has rumbled on for months, partly because of this reason ...

The compressor needs much much more than that to support 700 bhp. i did a small turbine project once and that little compressor could use as much as 70hp. That turbo was designed to deliver about 350 hp. So You can assume you need no more than about 20% in relation to the ICE horsepower to turn the compressor. So in this case to make 700 hp you need about 140hp max to turn the compressor in F1. it might be much lower because of better efficiency... say it could be as low as about 13% in relation to engine power so it could be in the region of 90 hp to 140hp.

Interesting. On your turbo that needed 70 hp what was the compressor efficiency, A/F ratio, and intake boost level?

On my car 2.0L at 45 lbs intake pressure at 7000 rpm with a corrected air flow of 73 lbs/min, with a A/F ratio of 11.5:1, and a compressor efficiency around 66% (older design turbo, my new turbo that is not installed yet is rated at 76%) the turbo needs around 168 hp to run the compressor with the engine making 756 hp at 171kg/hr. witha BSFC of .50 lb/hp-hr

My inputs for the F1 engine are 15.3psi intake pressure at 10500 rpm with a corrected air flow of 46 lbs/min, with a A/F ratio of 12.4:1, and a compressor efficiency around 78%. Both of my turbo calculators are saying the turbo hp requirements are at 42 hp, with the engine making around 690 hp based on the F1 fuel limit of 100kg/hr. with a
BSFC of .32 lb/hp-hr

Now by just by changing the A/F ratio to 16:1 there will be a increase in turbo compressor hp up to 76 hp, because the boost will have to be increased to 24.4 psi. to get to the 100kg/hr fuel limit. The mass air flow also will increase to
59 lbs/min.

[Tommy Cookers]

if I take Brian's post as implying that recovered power depends eg on the AFR .....
didn't gg's calcs clearly suggest otherwise ? (recently pursued in the drift across into the Renault V6 ? thread)
ie that high/v.high AFR raises both turbine power and compressor power and so is neutral wrt Brayton (and blowdown) recovery
pgfpro's figures posted above seem to support that neutrality ?

these (gg's) calcs assumed 80% efficiency from turbine and compressor
pgfpro above mentions 66% and 76% - and the Cranfield person's RCE article recently reposted mentions iirc 63-65%
efficiencies significantly below 70% are a recipe for zero Brayton recovery
what efficiencies are actually obtainable in F1 running ? (rather than steady running)
isn't this % crucial ? - does/can mu-h action's potential to stabilise actual turbo rpm help turbo efficiency ?

the one thing that raises recovery (both Brayton and blowdown) is raised exhaust pressure (higher than induction pressure ie a -dP)
turbine work increases, but compressor work does not
to some extent this is possible (with suitable EVC timing, and helped by the usual exhaust ie 'negative' pulse tuning)
unusually, in this F1 we can at least truly optimise EVC (and, importantly, EVO) ie the roadcar type compromise is avoidable

[AxialTurbine]

"Using some of my calculators from a few turbo company's the turbo needs around 42HP to run the compressor and has about 60HP max left over based on the F1 fuel limit. This is based on some of the most efficient radial turbos of today."

This is essentially right but the size of the leftovers will vary depending how you cook the main course : in the ICE.

The forum debate about combustion strategies in the ICE has rumbled on for months, partly because of this reason ...

It's relatively easy to calculate required compressor power.

Pow = m . Cp . Tin . (1/Ceffy) . (Pr^(g-1/g) - 1)

M = compressor mass flow (kg/s)
Cp = specific heat capacity at const pressure ... Maybe 1005 might be ok
Tin = Compressor inlet temp in kelvin
Ceffy = compressor efficiency as a decimal (0.75 to 0.80 would be reasonable)
Pr = compressor pressure ratio
g = ratio of specific heats based on compressor inlet temperature...1.4 is a good number

I should add that will give an answer in watts.

The turbine needs to supply that plus a bit ( 3% say) to account for bearing losses. Obviously any extra turbine work either is wastegated or absorbed by the electrical machine.

[PlatinumZealot]

"Using some of my calculators from a few turbo company's the turbo needs around 42HP to run the compressor and has about 60HP max left over based on the F1 fuel limit. This is based on some of the most efficient radial turbos of today."

This is essentially right but the size of the leftovers will vary depending how you cook the main course : in the ICE.

The forum debate about combustion strategies in the ICE has rumbled on for months, partly because of this reason ...

The compressor needs much much more than that to support 700 bhp. i did a small turbine project once and that little compressor could use as much as 70hp. That turbo was designed to deliver about 350 hp. So You can assume you need no more than about 20% in relation to the ICE horsepower to turn the compressor. So in this case to make 700 hp you need about 140hp max to turn the compressor in F1. it might be much lower because of better efficiency... say it could be as low as about 13% in relation to engine power so it could be in the region of 90 hp to 140hp.

Interesting. On your turbo that needed 70 hp what was the compressor efficiency, A/F ratio, and intake boost level?

On my car 2.0L at 45 lbs intake pressure at 7000 rpm with a corrected air flow of 73 lbs/min, with a A/F ratio of 11.5:1, and a compressor efficiency around 66% (older design turbo, my new turbo that is not installed yet is rated at 76%) the turbo needs around 168 hp to run the compressor with the engine making 756 hp at 171kg/hr. witha BSFC of .50 lb/hp-hr

My inputs for the F1 engine are 15.3psi intake pressure at 10500 rpm with a corrected air flow of 46 lbs/min, with a A/F ratio of 12.4:1, and a compressor efficiency around 78%. Both of my turbo calculators are saying the turbo hp requirements are at 42 hp, with the engine making around 690 hp based on the F1 fuel limit of 100kg/hr. with a
BSFC of .32 lb/hp-hr

Now by just by changing the A/F ratio to 16:1 there will be a increase in turbo compressor hp up to 76 hp, because the boost will have to be increased to 24.4 psi. to get to the 100kg/hr fuel limit. The mass air flow also will increase to
59 lbs/min.

Ok your numbers sound more accurate. Mine was based on when i used the turbo for a gas turbine project. My numbers were from memory.

[kudryavchik]

Guys, interested in your opinion. Is this engine more or less complex that Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault units used in F1?
According to Craig Scarborough - gearbox case is realised as in Mercedes FW05 and 06 where the external case is just a carbon bearing element. Gear "cassetes" are inside and easily removable.

[Cold Fussion]

What is your definition of more or less complex? The LMP1 engine regulations allow for a lot more technical freedom, but the exhaust harvesting concept of the 919 is fairly similar to F1.

[wuzak]

I think that WEC cars can't directly use the exhaust recovered energy in their MGUK - has to be routed to the battery.

Porsche use a turbo and a power recovery turbine - which is why it looks quite complicated.

[Cold Fussion]

I think that WEC cars can't directly use the exhaust recovered energy in their MGUK - has to be routed to the battery.

Porsche use a turbo and a power recovery turbine - which is why it looks quite complicated.

Yea there isn't any free energy flow in the LMP1 regulations, but they aren't power limited either (until next year).

[kudryavchik]

I mean in terms of technologies, production and so on.

[kudryavchik]

Yep, ers turbine and turbocharger are not mechanically connected - they are different units

[kudryavchik]

I think that WEC cars can't directly use the exhaust recovered energy in their MGUK - has to be routed to the battery.

Porsche use a turbo and a power recovery turbine - which is why it looks quite complicated.

Yea there isn't any free energy flow in the LMP1 regulations, but they aren't power limited either (until next year).

Next year only in le mans