2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
NL_Fer
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Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Frank_ wrote:
gruntguru wrote:
Frank_ wrote:these engine are common rail/DI tho surely ? spraying the fuel in as it burns
They are common rail DI - Yes.
Spraying the fuel as it burns - No.
You need to read the last few pages of this thread including Mahle TJI.
ahh, thanks gg, i had assumed that in order to achieve 45%+ thermal efficiency they had to keep the flamefront away from the cylinder walls, like a small swirling ball of fire continuously fed with fuel from tdc onwards (that was my understanding of current diesel engines)
No, the key is an (ultra)lean fuel/air mixture and TJI to properly burn it. A lean mixture with classic spark ignition would burn slow or not ignite at all.

It is still a mystery though, how much fuel is injected during intake and how much before TDC. The orginal implementation of TJI has also a separate port fuel injector, but this is not allowed in F1.

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FrukostScones
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Joined: 25 May 2010, 17:41
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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on 2017 onwards engine rules:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... -agreement
On the fourth point of noise, there is understood to be a commitment from engine manufacturers to implement a standard power unit exhaust sound generator.

The target is to introduce this generator as soon as possible but by 2018 at the very latest.
#-o
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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NL_Fer wrote:
Frank_ wrote:
gruntguru wrote:They are common rail DI - Yes. Spraying the fuel as it burns - No.
You need to read the last few pages of this thread including Mahle TJI.
ahh, thanks gg, i had assumed that in order to achieve 45%+ thermal efficiency they had to keep the flamefront away from the cylinder walls, like a small swirling ball of fire continuously fed with fuel from tdc onwards (that was my understanding of current diesel engines)
No, the key is an (ultra)lean fuel/air mixture and TJI to properly burn it. A lean mixture with classic spark ignition would burn slow or not ignite at all.
It is still a mystery though, how much fuel is injected during intake and how much before TDC. The orginal implementation of TJI has also a separate port fuel injector, but this is not allowed in F1.
all types of engines seem to do some burning btdc
this is not wholly bad - most of that heat is still available for relatively efficient conversion to work

judging by the many schemes for lean homogeneous charge the heat 'insulating' benefits of charge stratification per se are more PR than actual
ie the overall AFR is the significant factor and the nominally homogeneous charge works just as well
lowering cycle temperature by increased air massflow is beneficial in-cylinder without disbenefit to the exhaust recovery
(and remember all cars used lean mixture till mandatory 3 way catalysts forced most/all running 4% rich)

but N/A the Mahle TJI shows roughly 40% bte with a stoichiometric mixture and at best leaning (raising AFR) to 1.7x equivalence 44%
don't tell the FIA, they like to pretend that N/A is only good for 29%
and of course they banned multiple sparkplugs, a traditional means of getting distributed ignition sites and leaner running etc
(gas fuelling of the TJI unit allows further raising of the AFR, as does, greatly, gas fuelling of the engine)

in boosted engines TJI might support (F1 full power) leaning beyond 1.7x equivalence ratio
but isn't this1.7x the sort of equivalence ratio currently used, judging by the boosts used ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 29 Apr 2016, 13:51, edited 2 times in total.

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Holm86
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 03:37
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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FrukostScones wrote:on 2017 onwards engine rules:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... -agreement
On the fourth point of noise, there is understood to be a commitment from engine manufacturers to implement a standard power unit exhaust sound generator.

The target is to introduce this generator as soon as possible but by 2018 at the very latest.
#-o
This is embarrassing :oops:

NL_Fer
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Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Why it was great on my bicycle when i was a kid. Tatatatatarrrrrrrrrrr..rrrr.rrrr..rrrr

Facts Only
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Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 10:25

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Holm86 wrote:
FrukostScones wrote:on 2017 onwards engine rules:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... -agreement
On the fourth point of noise, there is understood to be a commitment from engine manufacturers to implement a standard power unit exhaust sound generator.

The target is to introduce this generator as soon as possible but by 2018 at the very latest.
#-o
This is embarrassing :oops:
This is just a bit mental, wherever I (and every other national level competitor) go racing we are hammered over noise. There's always a queue of people at the clerk of the courses office waiting to be admonished for being to loud.

Yet in F1 we see the what (I believe) are already the loudest circuit racing cars actually being made artificially louder.

What's going to happen when they go to Spa and have to turn them down to avoid the complaints from the locals? How odd will that be!
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Holm86 wrote:
FrukostScones wrote:on 2017 onwards engine rules:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... -agreement
On the fourth point of noise, there is understood to be a commitment from engine manufacturers to implement a standard power unit exhaust sound generator.

The target is to introduce this generator as soon as possible but by 2018 at the very latest.
#-o
This is embarrassing :oops:
It might not be as silly as it sounds no pun intended.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

mrluke
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Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 20:31

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Facts Only wrote:
Holm86 wrote:
FrukostScones wrote:on 2017 onwards engine rules:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... -agreement



#-o
This is embarrassing :oops:
This is just a bit mental, wherever I (and every other national level competitor) go racing we are hammered over noise. There's always a queue of people at the clerk of the courses office waiting to be admonished for being to loud.

Yet in F1 we see the what (I believe) are already the loudest circuit racing cars actually being made artificially louder.

What's going to happen when they go to Spa and have to turn them down to avoid the complaints from the locals? How odd will that be!
At the circuit i think the cars are fine, plenty noisy enough.

Its just the FOM feed that needs sorting out or better yet, give the tv crews the option of providing their own film.

gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
NL_Fer wrote:
Frank_ wrote: ahh, thanks gg, i had assumed that in order to achieve 45%+ thermal efficiency they had to keep the flamefront away from the cylinder walls, like a small swirling ball of fire continuously fed with fuel from tdc onwards (that was my understanding of current diesel engines)
No, the key is an (ultra)lean fuel/air mixture and TJI to properly burn it. A lean mixture with classic spark ignition would burn slow or not ignite at all.
It is still a mystery though, how much fuel is injected during intake and how much before TDC. The orginal implementation of TJI has also a separate port fuel injector, but this is not allowed in F1.
all types of engines seem to do some burning btdc
this is not wholly bad - most of that heat is still available for relatively efficient conversion to work
Yes. As an approximation any heat added at 10* BTDC will do the same work as if added at 10* ATDC.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Facts Only wrote:What's going to happen when they go to Spa and have to turn them down to avoid the complaints from the locals? How odd will that be!
Perhaps they will only need to flick a switch? :lol:
je suis charlie

Brian Coat
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Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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gruntguru wrote:
Facts Only wrote:What's going to happen when they go to Spa and have to turn them down to avoid the complaints from the locals? How odd will that be!
Perhaps they will only need to flick a switch? :lol:
Heh Heh : tweak the TV sound feed and no need to mod the cars, whilst they're at it they could CGI "people" into empty seats, ooh the list goes on ...

NL_Fer
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Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formule

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I'm used to the sound now. As a car drives by the camera at 300 kph you can recognize the dopler effect on the sound en the reverb from the walls around the track. It sounds fast, it's just different then a V8@19000rpm.

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henry
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Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Just scanned through the 2017 technical regulations published today. A new item is:
5.3.6 No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 18.0.
This would suggest that compression ratios are heading towards this figure if not there already. Does this seem likely?
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gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Sounds more like they are trying to limit the ability to operate cylinders with different functionality eg operate one bank at low boost, light load, ultra high CR and the opposite for the other bank. Having established such an engine, load would be regulated by cutting whichever cylinders would be most appropriate for the current output demand.

OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised if CR is sneaking up above the 12:1 I suggested earlier - thanks to the advanced combustion strategies being employed.
je suis charlie

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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18 sounds like a diesel engine figure. The engine's compression ratio wont change though guru; it would be fixed geometrically so the low/ high boost situation you mentioned isnt't the reason why.
Could it simply be for some safety reasons?

I have a feeling current ratios are a little below 14 and 12.5 minimum.
For Sure!!

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