A simple fuel-flow formula?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Pingguest
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Re: A smple fuel-flow formula?

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WhiteBlue wrote:The teams have a decisive majority in the F1commission and they all have very hard criteria to be met:
  • Keep the cost low.
  • Avoid a run away success for one engine manufacturer.
  • They want a solution which leaves the majority of the success factors for a championship winning car in the hand of the chassis constructor.
Regarding the second point: in the past we've seen teams to over class the rest of the field. Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren, Williams, they all dominated once or twice in Formula 1's history. However, as their rivals used them as an anchor point, the dominance didn't last too long.

Regarding the third point: if teams indeed want to leave the chassis as the most important success factor or at least more important than the engine, it's not likely that, unlike discussed elsewhere on this forum, the 2013 aerodynamics will contain a standardized ground effect underbody.

timbo
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Re: A smple fuel-flow formula?

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Why not go deeper?
Propose limit for potential power (stored energy/time) and use formula to compensate for ecological footprint (e.g. if the exhaust is only water you are allowed to use more).
Not realistic, but we can dream.

Formula None
Formula None
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Re: A smple fuel-flow formula?

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You might be on to something there, Timbo. There should be some incentive for how environmentally benign the contents of the car and fuel are. We might end up with a grid of very quick metal frame cars, using ICEs to burn hydrogen sourced from renewable-powered electrolysis.

No dirty fuels, no toxic batteries, limited use of hard to recycle composites (its a downcycler only AFAIK, unless TDP is getting more realistic). Tires are always going to be an issue, though, in all forms of automotive transportation. The dark art of life-cycle analysis would fit in nicely in F1, right next door to the aerodynamicists!

Edis
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Re: A smple fuel-flow formula?

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xpensive wrote:What if the WMSC had just gone with a 40 or 45 cc/second fuel-flow formula, left everything else free,
I wonder what we might have seen on the grid in 2013? Not totally convinved they'd be all I4 turbos.
From a presentaion by Jean Jaques His, head of Ferraris powertrain department
http://summit.fiainstitute.com/sustainability-workshop/documents/jj_his_presentation_2.ppt wrote: CO2 challenge for road cars, and fuel consumption of a race car are different problems :

- Race engines are mainly operated at high load, in their best efficiency area, and potential improvement of fuel consumption for race engines is limited

- Road car engines are mainly used at low load, in their worst efficiency conditions. Engine efficiency at low load may be improved by solutions which are not fully relevant to race operating conditions

Therefore, road cars are going massively towards downsizing and hybrids, and will tremendously cut the CO2 emissions as long as the current reference cycle will remain

The main objective of transplanting downsizing / turbo charging / hybrid systems ….. to race cars is to develop and promote road relevant technologies for reducing fuel consumption of road cars
So the main objective here isn't to find what solution will give the most power from a given fuel flow in a race car, but to use technology that is similar to what is used in production cars, and help improve and promote that technology.
xpensive wrote:I could obviously not disagree more, only twenty years ago when the turbos were banned, it resulted in a fantastic variety of interpretations of the 3.5 liter formula, V8s, V10s and V12s, all with different layouts, it took the FIA to ban everything but V10s for the engineers to concur on one format. Just the way things should be if you ask me.

I am certain that a simple fuel-flow limit would trigger a never seen creativity among the engineers, while giving back some technical and marketing incentive to integrate the development of an F1 engine in the general such of the manufacturer.

The idea that engineers of the world would rapidly home in on a common concept is to my mind complete nonsense, in a perfect world perhaps, but luckily we do not live in a such. If that was the case, all production cars would be the same wouldn't they?

I happen to believe that a 1.6 turbo I4 would not prove to be the preferred xecution, evertything taken into account.
Actually, all teams already used V10 engines before V10 engines were mandated in 2000.

For any engineering problem, there is generally a narrow range of "ideal solutions" to that problem. Of course, depending on the funding the teams have it may take them a longer or shorter time to find this ideal solution to the very specific problem a F1 engine is. But this is generally considered a bad thing. Spending huge sums of money finding the ideal solution for a F1 engine, which isn't relevant outside the world of F1, is pointless engineering exercise.

Pingguest
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Re: A smple fuel-flow formula?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
xpensive wrote:I could obviously not disagree more, only twenty years ago when the turbos were banned, it resulted in a fantastic variety of interpretations of the 3.5 liter formula, V8s, V10s and V12s, all with different layouts, it took the FIA to ban everything but V10s for the engineers to concur on one format. Just the way things should be if you ask me.
Let me point out a slight inaccuracy in your version of the history. 1995 was the first year of the 3.0L NA formula. It took F1 just one year to find out that V10 was the way to go. In 1996 only the tail end charlies Footwork and Minardi ran a V8. The rest was completely on V10 without any interference of the FiA. In 1998 all engines were V10.

1995 - 14 teams - 1 x V12 - 6 x V10 - 7 x V8
1996 - 11 teams - 9 x V10 - 2 x V8
1997 - 12 teams - 9 x V10 - 3 x V8
1998 - 11 teams - 11 x V10

So much for the theory that you do not have an automatic convergence to the successful engine format in modern F1.
If designs totally converged, mandating a V10 wouldn't have been necessary. Toyota started to develop a V12 for their Formula 1 project and it was said that Ferrari and Honda were considering to follow suit.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: A smple fuel-flow formula?

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WhiteBlue wrote:Let me point out a slight inaccuracy in your version of the history. 1995 was the first year of the 3.0L NA formula. It took F1 just one year to find out that V10 was the way to go. In 1996 only the tail end charlies Footwork and Minardi ran a V8. The rest was completely on V10 without any interference of the FiA. In 1998 all engines were V10.

1995 - 14 teams - 1 x V12 - 6 x V10 - 7 x V8
1996 - 11 teams - 9 x V10 - 2 x V8
1997 - 12 teams - 9 x V10 - 3 x V8
1998 - 11 teams - 11 x V10

So much for the theory that you do not have an automatic convergence to the successful engine format in modern F1.
Edis wrote:Actually, all teams already used V10 engines before V10 engines were mandated in 2000.

For any engineering problem, there is generally a narrow range of "ideal solutions" to that problem. Of course, depending on the funding the teams have it may take them a longer or shorter time to find this ideal solution to the very specific problem a F1 engine is. But this is generally considered a bad thing. Spending huge sums of money finding the ideal solution for a F1 engine, which isn't relevant outside the world of F1, is pointless engineering exercise.
You are right Edis! As you can see I have actually documented the effect by researching the figures from the annual Wikipedia list of engines beginning in 1995. The figures send a very clear message:
  • five out of the top six teams started with the optimum configuration
  • convergence happens in one year for the top 80% of the grid
  • it is an automatic process that happens without interference of the FiA
  • it is controlled by cost as the tail enders convert latest
The only top three team that started with a non optimized V12 solution was Ferrari. They reversed the decision in the first year and must have paid a very high price indeed for that error. It was exactly the same thinking that went wrong for Ferrari in 1995 as it is now. The V10 was lighter and more fuel efficient than the V12. Same is true for the comparison of L4 and V6 in 2013. And again it seems that Ferrari is unable to learn from their history.
Pingguest wrote:If designs totally converged, mandating a V10 wouldn't have been necessary. Toyota started to develop a V12 for their Formula 1 project and it was said that Ferrari and Honda were considering to follow suit.
I suggest we discuss facts and not rumors. The numbers I quoted between 1995 and 1998 are based on public sources. If you want to dispute them you should give us original documents showing the validity of your assertions.

You should also consider that fundamental aspects of the formula changed between 1995 and 2000. Aerodynamic rules, track width and tyres had fundamental changes which all influenced the optimum engine config. In order to contain cost there could well be a point for the federation to legislate against constant re optimization.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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747heavy
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Re: A smple fuel-flow formula?

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WhiteBlue wrote: I suggest we discuss facts and not rumors. The numbers I quoted between 1995 and 1998 are based on public sources. If you want to dispute them you should give us original documents showing the validity of your assertions.
Race Car Engineering wrote: Toyota had intended to run a 3.0-litre V12 in its new TF101 chassis, but a late regulation change on the grounds of cutting costs barred all but the 10-cylinder configuration.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... ngine.html

Just that informations are public, does not mean they are true, but if public information will do for you.
It´s public information as well, that Toyota would have gone V12, if not for the mandarory V10.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

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WhiteBlue
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Re: A smple fuel-flow formula?

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747heavy wrote:
Race Car Engineering wrote:Toyota had intended to run a 3.0-litre V12 in its new TF101 chassis, but a late regulation change on the grounds of cutting costs barred all but the 10-cylinder configuration.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... ngine.html
Just that informations are public, does not mean they are true, but if public information will do for you.
It´s public information as well, that Toyota would have gone V12, if not for the mandarory V10.
Thank you, 747heavy for providing a source. It always helps with objectivity. Regarding the topic on hand I would still argue that the 1995-1998 evolution was a valid example within one consistent rule set.

From 1998 there were additional rule changes which affected the configuration optimum and may have caused re optimization. As your source confirmed the FiA mandated the V10 config to avoid further continuous optimization cost.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Scania
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2013 fuel flow limt

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how would FIA limted the fuel flow?

standard fuel pumb?
fuel line resistor?
ECU merssure?
Last edited by mx_tifoso on 19 Feb 2011, 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: was its own thread, but merged into here

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: 2013 fuel flow limt

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"Fuel consumption will be restricted both by limiting fuel flow and introducing a maximum capacity for races." This thread we already have here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9259&start=30

Anyway, the new engines will run at 10,000 RPM, turbocharging compounding will be included, 1.6 liters capacity.

I've read Audi (well, VW) says that in this case, they'll run in F1. Green Todt, ecogermans will love the guy.

Worse yet, Cosworth and Renault agree on all that. I don't know what Maranello thinks, nor what to think myself of what means that 600 hp come from the engine, while KERS gives you 120 Kwatts AND power boost systems (????) provide the difference with the 750 HP total which is the target.

Mods, please, merge this thread with the one already in place, I say.
Ciro