What is the KERS and how it works

[Scuderia Nuvolari]

I think there will be more use of capacitors in balance with (possibly structural) batteries.

Can you tell us anything about these structural batteries that would work in this application? Most that I have seen seem to be weak.
Are you talking about foam batteries?

[superdread]

I think there will be more use of capacitors in balance with (possibly structural) batteries.

Can you tell us anything about these structural batteries that would work in this application? Most that I have seen seem to be weak.
Are you talking about foam batteries?

The idea that whoever (BAE or something) developed for the Dyson-Lola is, I think, that the batteries are fairly conventional (not hard to achieve some resilience to compression) and by bonding them directly to a tensile case (CFRP) it produces a sandwich composite. Rather like the chassis, with its compression-bearing aluminium honeycomb and the tensile carbon fibre.

The difficulties connected with something like that are:
Cooling - less surface area, holes for air cooling need to be reinforced (now that the battery is stressed) but maybe could double up as electrodes
Forming - batteries have to be in one big piece (currently they are in different modules)
Materials - I don't know how compression-resistant LiPo-materials are (or supercap-materials for that matter)

[Tommy Cookers]

KERS recovers (a very small part of the) energy stored in the car's motion
(and requires a storage system that disadvantages the car in laptime, but is mandated by weight handicapping)

'TERS' or whatever it is called recovers energy (waste or otherwise) as it is being created by the engine
(and does not require a storage system, because it recovers energy that could be used immediately)

the 2014 rules have greatly increased the total maximum permitted power and capacity/use of energy recovery

have they supported increased storage via weight handicapping ?
(or is further storage incentivised only because races are still won or lost via 'qualifying' positions ?)

till now vehicle weight, bulk etc has always been declared the major factor in real-world fuel efficiency

without the weight handicapping to enforce 'energy recovery' systems that themselves waste energy by increasing weight and aero-disadvantageous bulk, surely a V6 turbo on restricted fuel could be competitive without any such systems ?

[autogyro]

Very good point Tommy.
All the current hybrid powertrains and ERS's in motorsport are mainly a sop to the environmental lobby and green issues.
There is also little to be gained in energy recovery from hybrid road vehicles, I think this is pretty well proven by now.

The answer is to get rid of the environmentaly 'bad' part of the powertrain.
This of course is the internal combustion engine so loved by motor heads.
Pure electric will be the future, it is not a question of if only when.

That is why I placed an official paper before the FIA AEC meeting on the 27th of January 2010 outlining a development process for electric motorsport.
Many of the suggestions have been taken up and an all electric open wheeled formula is promised for 2013.
Mecedes Petronas has one design of open wheeled all electric car doing the rounds worldwide at this time.
Those who run F1 (especialy supercar makers) do not like the idea of 'clean sustainable' motorsport or road vehicles.
At present they have the resources to hold off the inevitable, the 2014 F1 regulations and the use of KERS/HERS is their method at present, to delude the world public. Non of it has credibility in the real engineering world.

The thread, 'How does KERS work', It recovers energy as the vehicle slows down that would otherwisw be converted to heat at the brakes. It only gives an energy benefit where either the vehicle is continualy starting and stopping (a delivery vehicle in Town) or in motorsport where hard (energy sapping) deceleration is forced by the competition ( not best energy use).
The best savings of energy for a normal vehicle are made when the vehicle is coasted to its stop therebye extending its range to energy used ratio. Energy saving in current ic F1 is therefore completely pointless.

[superdread]

without the weight handicapping to enforce 'energy recovery' systems that themselves waste energy by increasing weight and aero-disadvantageous bulk, surely a V6 turbo on restricted fuel could be competitive without any such systems ?

Driving down the pit lane with deactivated ignition would be a little hard, though. And starting the engine.

The stupid energy recovery is really forced onto the teams (energy savings are not the issue because building the ERS wastes more energy than they could ever save in the car, neither are tech for road cars as the main issues for batteries (longevity and price) are irrelevant for F1).

Without forcing the ERS the V6-turbo could very well be as fast, but that all depends on the rules (e.g. the turbo boost limit).

[autogyro]

The stupid energy recovery is not only the 'real' point of the exercise it is essential for the future of F1 at this time.
True, technicaly it means a fat zero using high performance ic engines as the prime mover but energy recovery has to be done, there is no alternative way to go if ic engines are to be retained.
Electric racing will be the future, it just depends how long motor heads can prevent development and carry on damaging the planet. F1 will help to expose this more and more as time goes on.

[superdread]

The stupid energy recovery is not only the 'real' point of the exercise it is essential for the future of F1 at this time.
True, technicaly it means a fat zero using high performance ic engines as the prime mover but energy recovery has to be done, there is no alternative way to go if ic engines are to be retained.
Electric racing will be the future, it just depends how long motor heads can prevent development and carry on damaging the planet. F1 will help to expose this more and more as time goes on.

In terms of energy and resources wasted, the hybrid drivetrains are worse than the normal combustion ones, because building these batteries that only last some thousand kilometers (in that hundreds of charging-cycles) is very costly.
F1 in general is large indulgence (e.g. the massive amount of CFRP parts produced for each car) and overall using a little bit less fuel doesn't make much difference, introducing a complicated material-intensive new system does.

As an engineering challenge (maybe to benefit roadcars) it does not make much sense either, most aims for a racing system diverge massively from road use (cost, lifetime, temperature operating window...).

After all, it is a PR stunt to make F1 look greenish, and motorsport is not supposed to be green (the motorhomes use more fuel than the cars for a race weekend). Electric racing will not work in the near future, with the systems being more expensive, heavier and less powerful than ICEs.

[autogyro]

Less powerful than ICE.
This is irelevent as I keep saying.
ICE racing is restricted by regulations that set performance.
Every engineer on this forum is capable of designing a car with a higher 'performance' than the cars currently racing.
All you have to do is ignore the regulations.
How then is it possible in any way to make a direct comparison to electric racing, which will also be restricted by regulations?
If the regulations are different which they obviously will be, then there cannot be a meaningful comparison.

[superdread]

Less powerful than ICE.
This is irelevent as I keep saying.
ICE racing is restricted by regulations that set performance.
Every engineer on this forum is capable of designing a car with a higher 'performance' than the cars currently racing.
All you have to do is ignore the regulations.
How then is it possible in any way to make a direct comparison to electric racing, which will also be restricted by regulations?
If the regulations are different which they obviously will be, then there cannot be a meaningful comparison.

That is not what I meant. In comparison to current ICE propulsion, giving a comparable amount of power, the electric systems will be more expensive (have less range/weight). So the only way to broadly introduce electric propulsion (at current cost levels) would mean that race cars in general become much less powerful and have much less range.
Of course the regulations and teams can adapt, but current cars (e.g. F1 and Le Mans) are so slow by now that they don't kill the drivers any more. Making them even slower is not really the right direction.

[FW17]

McLaren Mercedes have been working on their in-house KERS for almost two years. McLaren actually developed a KERS system in 1999. Mario Illien created a system for Mercedes in 1999 that used hydraulic fluid pressure to recover energy lost in braking. It would have provided a 45bhp power boost for four seconds but could have been used many times per lap.

Does anyone have more details of the system?

[Toivonen]

Who invented kers?