Delta wing car concept

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Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:15 am

countersteer wrote:http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1245&hilit=williams+6+wheel

I was interested to read the similarities between the Williams 6 wheel and the Deltawing.

I've chosen to temper my pessimism out of respect for Ben Bowlby's prior accomplishments. I'll be glad to see it run...

6 wheel car make more grip, more friction & more weight
Deltawing make less grip, less friction & less weight, but sence the weight is so light, the needed of grip also less
Scania
 
Joined: 26 Nov 2008

Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:21 am

FFS who cares what someone's name is or their affiliated organizations. It goes all sorts of ways. There are big name folks who are clueless (quite a few really).. there are no name folks who are brilliant and accomplished.. and vice versa.

Names and affiliations, smoke and mirrors aside.. evaluate something for what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. Break it down mentally and see if it makes sense, or if any flags are being thrown.

Throws quite a few flags in my book.
Grip is a four letter word.

2 is the new #1.
Jersey Tom
 
Joined: 29 May 2006
Location: Huntersville, NC

Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:30 am

I concur with the above sentiments, a race car with 4 wheels & and an internal combustion engine is far too radical for my tastes. Oh dear, I seem to have dropped my monocle into my champagne again, how do you typically deal with this situation, JT? Caviar spoon or have one of the waitstaff fish it out? I really need to stop getting so horrified, I'm going through like 3 monocles a week these days.

Image

Seriously though, let us embrace our new horizontal Segway overlords. Delta Win or Delta Fail, I'll enjoy the experiment.
Formula None
 
Joined: 17 Nov 2010

Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:57 am

This car will run a 1.6 Turbo engine. Wonder if it will run a de tuned 2014 F1 engine?
WilliamsF1
 
Joined: 6 Jan 2010

Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:11 am

Well, it's supposed to race in 2012 (Also, the world ends that year. Coincidence? I think not!).
Formula None
 
Joined: 17 Nov 2010

Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:33 pm

Formula None wrote:I concur with the above sentiments, a race car with 4 wheels & and an internal combustion engine is far too radical for my tastes. Oh dear, I seem to have dropped my monocle into my champagne again, how do you typically deal with this situation, JT? Caviar spoon or have one of the waitstaff fish it out? I really need to stop getting so horrified, I'm going through like 3 monocles a week these days.

Image

Seriously though, let us embrace our new horizontal Segway overlords. Delta Win or Delta Fail, I'll enjoy the experiment.


That it's being marketed through a pile of BS, and that people believe it, is what irritates the hell out of me.
Grip is a four letter word.

2 is the new #1.
Jersey Tom
 
Joined: 29 May 2006
Location: Huntersville, NC

Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:45 pm

The concept of it is just too far away from my understand of how a car should work....I'd gladly see it run and run fast and make my jaw drop. But I am not holding my breath TBH....

The amount of big names attaches to it just throws me off, without those names no one would give it a 2nd look....
RacingManiac
 
Joined: 22 Nov 2004

Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:18 pm

Scania wrote:
countersteer wrote:http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1245&hilit=williams+6+wheel

I was interested to read the similarities between the Williams 6 wheel and the Deltawing.

I've chosen to temper my pessimism out of respect for Ben Bowlby's prior accomplishments. I'll be glad to see it run...

6 wheel car make more grip, more friction & more weight
Deltawing make less grip, less friction & less weight, but sence the weight is so light, the needed of grip also less



Reliance on ground effects for downforce... massive shift of tire contact patch to the rear... corresponding shift of weight bias from front to the rear.... limited reliance on the front wing (just a trimtab).

Both the Deltawing and the 6 wheel Williams were driven by the need to compete with lower horsepower engines. Williams said it tested so well that it was banned.

Bowlby appears to have just taken the concept a bit further.

I am glad to see it run.
countersteer
 
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Location: Spring Hill, TN

Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:26 pm

Scania wrote:Ben Bowlby-- talent race enginner, build race car to race when he is 19, worked in Lola
highcroft racing--ALMS P2 2 times champion
Chip Ganassis--long term top class team in Gran-Am, NASCAR & Indy Car
ACO--Deltawing beat 918 RSR & GreenGT to get the seat of Project 56 (although GreenGT might race in LMPH2)

you are.................

who should I trust?


Long overdue comment. Thank you. =D> :lol: =D> :lol: :lol:
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill
donskar
 
Joined: 3 Feb 2007
Location: Cardboard box, end of Boulevard of Broken Dreams

Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:20 pm

Say what you want. Makes --- all difference whose name is attached to a project. Evaluate it for what it is. Don't be a mindless sheep.
Grip is a four letter word.

2 is the new #1.
Jersey Tom
 
Joined: 29 May 2006
Location: Huntersville, NC

Post Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:00 pm

Jersey Tom wrote:Don't be a mindless sheep.


What kind of sheep should I be? Perhaps a sympathetic sheep. You can cry upon my luxurious woolen shoulders anytime, JT. I'm here for you. Or as we like to say, "Baaa, baaa."

Not sure why you are taking this so seriously. It's a race car, and a publicity stunt to draw attention to the 2012 Le Mans race. If it works, cool, if it doesn't, then everyone's doubts will be confirmed. I think we all agree it doesn't look like it can turn, intuitively, but I'd like to see if it can. The comments earlier comparing this to a Porsche with more rear weight bias, lower cg and a narrower front track makes me think its not quite as crazy as it seems.
Formula None
 
Joined: 17 Nov 2010

Post Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:50 am

WilliamsF1 wrote:This car will run a 1.6 Turbo engine. Wonder if it will run a de tuned 2014 F1 engine?


The engine and tranny on this thing are non-stressed. (This came from the original Indycar concept to simplify different engines.) They claim that they will use a 4 cylinder. You can get 300 horsepower out of a turbo Toyota 4AG quite easily (and relatively inexpensively). Heck, you could do it with a Hayabusa based motor!

Check this out... http://deltawingracing.com/
countersteer
 
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Location: Spring Hill, TN

Post Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:04 pm

Any idea where the tunnels start?
WilliamsF1
 
Joined: 6 Jan 2010

Post Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:36 pm

RacingManiac wrote:The concept of it is just too far away from my understand of how a car should work....I'd gladly see it run and run fast and make my jaw drop. But I am not holding my breath TBH....

The amount of big names attaches to it just throws me off, without those names no one would give it a 2nd look....

I think that it is not based on tranditional race car dynamic but back to the basice physical law.
Scania
 
Joined: 26 Nov 2008

Post Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:30 pm

After running some simulations of the Deltawing I have no doubt that it should be capable of a 3:45 lap time at Le Mans, despite only 300bhp. What bother’s me about the Deltawing is that many of the benefits of the design could easily be applied to a ‘conventional’, rectangular, car and furthermore, it is suggested that the ‘delta’ shape has many disadvantages compared to a rectangular car.

To illustrate these disadvantages I have modelled a rectangular ground effects car which I humbly call the “Machin Wingcar”:-

Image

The different aspects of the Deltawing are compared to the Wingcar below, with numbers for comparison:-

Weight distribution
The Deltawing has a 27.5:72.5 Fr:Rr weight distribution. The Wingcar uses a ‘conventional’ 45:55 Fr:Rr distribution.

Wheelbase
The Deltawing has a 2.9m wheelbase. The Wingcar has a 2.6m wheelbase.

Overall Length
The Deltawing is 4.65m long overall. The Wingcar would be 4.35m long overall.

Overall Width
The Deltawing has a 2m overall width. The Wingcar would have the same overall width.

Centre of Gravity Height
Both cars would have a cg height of approximately 0.3metres. Nothing on the Deltawing would suggest a lower cg than a conventional car.
No advantage to either car

Engine
The Deltawing uses a 300bhp, turbocharged 1.6 litre engine, weighing just 77kg. The Wingcar would use the same engine. No advantage to either car.

Gearbox
The Deltawing uses a 5 speed gearbox weighing just 33kg. The wingcar would use the same gearbox. No advantage to either car.

Total Mass
The Deltawing weighs 475kg. Can a “conventional” prototype be made this light? The Radical SR3 is this light and is a spaceframe and GRP-bodied prototype. A carbon monocoque car could easily attain this weight.
No advantage to either car

Tyre Width
The Deltawing uses 320mm wide rear tyres and special 100mm wide front tyres. To obtain the same rear tyre contact area pressure the Wingcar requires 240mm wide rear tyres (due to the lower rear weight distribution). For convenience the front tyres of the Wingcar are the same size as the rear. This leads to a lower contact area pressure on the front tyres of the Wingcar than on the Deltawing, despite the higher weight on the front tyres. Lower tyre contact area pressures should reduce tyre wear.
Advantage Wingcar.

Track widths
The Deltawing has a 0.6m front track width. Its overall 2m width and 320mm wide rear tyres results in a rear track of 1.68m. The Wingcar’s overall 2m width and 240mm tyres results in a front and rear track of 1.76m.
Advantage Wingcar

Drag
The Deltawing has a drag coefficient of 0.24 and a frontal area of approx 1.2m^2. With identical dimensions the Wingcar would have the same frontal area. Since the Wingcar’s rear tyres are in the wake of the front tyres, and (due to the narrower rear tyres) a smaller “base area” at the rear of the car the Wingcar would potentially have a lower drag coefficient.
Advantage Wingcar

Downforce
The Deltawing reportedly will make 9300N of downforce at 200mph. Due to the wider rear tyres and small “delta” plan area the space for ground effects is small –approx 2.7m^2. The Wingcar, with narrower rear tyres and large rectangular plan area has a much larger ground effect area, approx 6m^2. This means the Wingcar’s floor loading is lower which should improve efficiency.
Advantage Wingcar
Image
Image

Braking Performance
Braking performance is highest when tyre contact area pressures are distributed evenly over a vehicle’s tyres. Assuming a 1.5G braking event and no downforce the Deltawing would have a Fr:Rr weight distribution of 43:57 resulting in approximate tyre contact pressures of 50kN/m^2 on the front and 21kN/m^2 on the rear, despite the rearward static weight distribution the narrow front tyres will be the limiting factor in braking. The Wingcar, with a conventional static weight distribution and equally sized tyres, in the same 1.5G braking event has a weight distribution of 62:38, resulting in tyre contact pressures of 30kN/m^2 (front) and 18kN/m^2 (rear). The lower tyre contact area pressures on the Wingcar should result in higher braking performance, or lower wear for the same performance.
Advantage Wingcar

Cornering Performance
As with Braking, cornering performance is highest when tyre contact pressures are distributed evenly over a vehicle’s tyres. The narrow front track of the Deltawing results in a higher load on the outside rear tyre than a conventional car as it must resist the majority of the over-turning moment. Subjected to 1.5G cornering event (again with no downforce) the pressure on the outside rear tyre of the Delta wing is estimated at 47kN/m^2. Despite the Wingcar’s narrower rear tyres, the fact that the front track width is much wider and can therefore absorb an equal amount of the over-turning moment means the rear outside tyre contact area pressure is just 40kN/m^2 in the same cornering scenario.
Advantage Wingcar

Low speed acceleration
Low speed acceleration is determined by the amount of motive force that can be transmitted to the road and this is determined by the vertical force on the driven tyres. The Deltawing’s high rear weight distribution and wide rear tyres gives the Deltawing higher low speed acceleration than a conventional car, all else being equal. At a circuit like Le Mans, with high average speeds, this is of little benefit.
Negligable benefit to Deltawing at Le Mans.

Side impact Crash protection
The Deltawing’s narrow monocoque has little room for side impact protection alongside the driver safety cell. The wingcar’s wide body work enables the fitment of long side impact crash structures within the body work.


So to conclude:- Many of the features/characteristics of the Deltawing (engine, lightweight, ground effects etc) would work equally well, if not better, on a conventional car. The ‘delta’ shape of the Deltawing has clearly been shown to be inferior to the rectangular shape of a conventional car in all but low speed straight line acceleration, which has negligable benefit at a high speed course like Le Mans.
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machin
 
Joined: 25 Nov 2008

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