Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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vyselegend
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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Nope, I've got no infos at the moment. Only thing for sure, if Corvette racing continues in GT1 one further year, they'll be all alone again.
They could still fit a V8 in a proto, maybe. (not sure at all but I think I've read somewhere new regs allow a 7 L. engine in this case).

One good thing on the GT front is the anounced return of BMW, whith the new M3 to make debut at Sebring in GT2.

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The P65 engine is an aluminium 4 L. V8, and official performances figures state a max power of 485CH and a max torque of 500Nm.

This block (it's a scoop), was fitted at the rear of the Pescarolo LMP2 during the recent Estoril test! Very interesting partnership IMO! The proposed rules of 2011 are calling for current LMP2 engines in P1 (which let us suppose that by 2011 there will be only two categories, one being GT, made of current GT2 regs, and the other being LMP, made of current LMP2 regs mixed with the hybrid stuff), so basically with the M3 running in ALMS and the Pescarolo P2, BMW is aquiring lots of datas about a "2011 LMP1 engine". See what you want in that. [-o< Obviously, the more manufacturers joins the P1 battle, the better the fight will be.

Anyway this is good for the GT2 class, it will (hopefully) stop being a Ferrari vs Porsche exclusive field, with now BMW joining Spyker, Aston-Martin (and maybe one Ford GT), plus the recurent efforts like Panoz.

About the new rear wings, well, they don't look THAT horrible for the moment, but those on the pics (OREC & Pug) are just 2009 specs by width (1.6 m). According to Henri Pescarolo they were not meeting the required span, which has been reduced too. Let's wait before stating it's not horrible lol, it might very well look like a gurney flap mounted on two pillars in the end... :lol:

modbaraban
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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Is it true that Audi won't compete in 2009? :shock: (except 24h Du Mans & Sebring)?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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Yes, definetely announced.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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vyselegend
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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New Acura LMP1 breaks cover

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8) Very good looking car! Diveplanes seems ...extremes. It feels like a High DF package.

Look at that rear wing attachement :!: :

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Engine seems like a N/A V8 :? :

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Pics are from:EI and RCE

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vyselegend
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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And as a good news never comes alone:

Aston Martin launch works LMP1 assault (autosport article)

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:shock: :o :) :D :P

This is just too much! Reality looks like perfection today!

Although the season will be cheaper because of cost cuts everywhere, Le Mans itself will be definitly be a GREAT ONE!

Aston vs Acura VS Audi VS Peugeot, plus all the credible privateers (the Pescas, Lola-Aston -ex charouz-, Oreca and co are still there)! This will be possibly the greatest field since LMP1 class exist. =P~ Oh, I just can't wait!

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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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Thank God they are bringing LMP1 back down to a realistic level that allows more manufacturers to compete.

On the Acura:

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Why would they want to disrupt the airflow on both surfaces? Surely this is less efficient? Or perhaps they are getting around a loophole in the regulations by doing so? That upper mount looks ghastly (not aesthetically) tbh :?

Quote off of RCE: "the car uses rear tyres all around". Very interesting as the rear tyres are wider by a substantial amount. Did they feel the ratio of downforce/balance required more grip up front? Do they have a front-heavy car?
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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vyselegend wrote:Image
:shock: BLIMEY! =P~

That's the best looking new prototype I've seen for years!

PS: notice how much better most LMPs look without that F1-style nose.

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vyselegend
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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A friend of mine submitted this article to my attention, and I though it was worth sharing obviously, since it uncovers some of the most intriguing aspects of the new ARX-02a LMP1 car, from the mouth of Nick Wirth imself:

The Way It Is/ Acura's ARX-02a LMP1 car by Gordon Kirby

Unfortunately (and logically), there's no comprehensive explaination of the rear wing's philosophy. I read at another place that those wing's supports might have the same purpose than Red Bull's (and other F1's) shark fins, by potentially straightening the flow over the upper plane and reducing the influence of yaw on the aerodynamic efficiency. Also, I don't remember where I read it (might be here), but someone told the upper part of the wing (due to build pressure) is less sensitive to perturbations than the underside (which is meant to develop a depression). I can't argue over this so feel free to correct me if this is nonsense. Last point over this wings struts is that their shape is rumoured to be "gentle" with streams hitting it (not too much disruptions comparatively with angular designs). Another point open to correction eventualy...

Back to our article, here's what we can learn about the very surprising choice of symetric wheel mounting from rear to front (18 inches), and it's effect on wheight repartition:
In my blog at Motor Sport's website last week Wirth explained his concept of getting more rubber on the road and increasing the overall contact patch area by up to ten percent. The big front tires make the car look like a 4WD machine. They allow more weight to be brought forward so that the car enjoys close to a 50/50 weight balance. Loads on the Acura's front tires are much bigger than normal, requiring the complicated power-assisted steering system, but the drivers report the car is still physically difficult to drive.

"One of the first things that jumped out the first time I drove the car is that it has a lot of grip in the corners and under braking," de Ferran commented. "Our biggest challenge so far has been how to make the best use of the grip.

"Making the decision to have the same size tires all-round has unearthed a whole lot of engineering problems and challenges that didn't previously exist," de Ferran continued. "One of them is the steering system because the loads are huge. Together with all the HPD engineers, they have developed probably one of the most complex and sophisticated power systems and that's very much an item that is on a very steep development curve. When it's working well, it works well.
"When it's working well, it works well." 8) You have to love that last sentence.

After a quick disgression over the way the car was designed and developed (worth reading btw), Wirth is back,insisting about the hydraulic nightmare of their car:
The power-assisted hydraulic steering system and its fiendish mechanical geometry also created a challenge in packaging.

"We were very, very aware of the inherent reliability issues that would bring with it," Wirth commented. "There are certain reasons why in the future it might be advantageous to have hydraulics on the engine for other engine-related functions you're allowed to do in P1 that you're not allowed to do in P2. So it was a longterm goal that we needed to look at but certainly there were some packaging aspects to do with the monocoque which meant it was an optimum solution.

"All of us--HPD, Acura and ourselves--went into it knowing that we might end up halfway through Sebring regretting that we have hydraulics on the car. It was extremely complicated from the start and we've certainly found it's a very big challenge. The supply of hydraulics and keeping that supply all through the race under all circumstances is quite a challenge and continues to be a challenge. It's my fervent hope that we get on top of it before the race at Sebring. We certainly seem to be turning the corner on it, but it was a known and calculated risk to do that."
I must say I am surprised he makes such a story of it. For sure the particular need of their heavy front train engenders the power steering system to suffer more loads, and thus compromises it's reliability, but he seems to be impressed by the complexity of integrating the hydraulic system to the car. I thought having hydraulic management of the transmition, or power steering (and even suspentions in Peugeot's case if you believe the rumors) was quite common in LMP...

Then I won't quote all the part on the transmition, developed in collaboration with Xtrac, but that piece of the beast seems to have it's secrets also, being very heavy and sturdy looking from the outside, actually used as a part of chassis stiffness, as the (less exiting at the moment I must say) engine itself. Gil de Ferran certainly seems to enjoy shifting performance from that box...

Lots of other stuff you need to read there. But unfortunately, HPD's boss Erik Berkman states in the begining: "Our goal this year is to win the P1 and P2 championships and, of course, to win here at Sebring at the start of the season. We have no plans at this time, to race at Le Mans."

It is obvious to a lot of observers that this ARX-02a is an ALMS exclusive beast, developed to cope with relatively high downforce needs, and supposedly unsuitable to race at Le Mans...
With Gordon Kirby adding "The Acura brand is not sold in Europe, of course, so any decision about the ARX-02a racing at Le Mans appears to depend on Honda developing a plan to sell cars in Europe as well as how the evolution of the ACO's P1 rules for Le Mans take shape over the next few years." I must say I am tired of this strange way of thinking (such brand doesn't sell products there so they won't advertise there, etc), because I find it to be totally irrelevant! I can't see any difference in following LMS through motors TV, and following ALMS through Motors TV too. :| I think for exemple Peugeot fans from Europe had as much visibility from the two ALMS rounds the 908s did than the five LMS ones (even more actually since ALMS didn't collide with F1 GPs...) Now he wants to make us believe that a manufacturer won't compete at LM because they don't sell cars in Europe? Please, don't take us for fools, Le Mans 24 hours race is certainly the most watched endurance event in all continents! I wouldn't believe american endurance addicts turn their eyes off to LM because it's not actually located in the USA... Seriously...

I think Acura, Aston, Audi, Peugeot (& any other car maker involving itself) should all compete in ALMS full season, with equal TV feed toward all continents, and do the 24 hours as well. LMS is crap since it's so badly managed, so IF it survives it's own poverty, it should become a privateers-only serie. 5 round won't ever make a championship anyway, so they should rename it LMS "cup" or "trophy"...

Sorry for the little rant.

BTW I'm going to assist the LMS test at Paul Ricard (8 & 9 March), I'll try to shoot the Aston as much as possible! 8)

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vyselegend
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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Audi R15 revealed

Though the suspence had faden away the last few days when lots of spy shots leaked through the Internet, the curtain has been officialy removed, and the beast is hot!

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Hi-Res version (I'm not joking, the pic is in 3 840 x 2 560) :wink: here

Very impressive car, with a radical new front end. Radiators have been moved forward, to increase weight distribution on the front, as the team seems to follow Acura's steps of mounting rear tyres on the front train.

Quite surprisingly, the treatment of the air exiting the front splitter, channeled by the bodywork along the sidepods external side, is reminding a bit of... the WR/Salini LMP2 from last year! (ok maybe it's just me but I found that ressemblance striking).
The shark gills on top of the sidepods, ahead of the turbos admission, confirms that the weight balance have been moved forward (and are also another stunning ressemblance to the WR, IMO!)

The rear wing is another feature that seem copied and pasted from Acura (Obviously this is not the case, I'm not implying there have been any sort of spying from Audi, they don't need it). But the rear wing's support blatantly mimics the revolutionary ARX-02B's eliptical one, connecting to the upper plane of the wing.
Another funny feature is the implementation of LED braking lights in the rear wing's endplates.

The engine is supposedly a bi-turbo diesel V10 5.5L, a lighter and lower block than the V12 of the R10.

At the moment Audi have only confirmed entry for two cars at Sebring next month, and (most probably three cars) entry at Le Mans in june.

Meanwhile, earlier this week,

Peugeot officialised their 2009 program.

Without surprise they will stick to the fight with Audi, competing in both Sebring and Le Mans too (with respectively two and three cars), with the addition in their case of an impressive three cars effort at Spa's 1000 km, just before LM. A wise choice since the official test have been cancelled, and the Lions learned their lesson about bringing unexperienced rookies to fight the old crocodile Audi in La Sarthe...

They seem to have taken the lesson very seriously actually, and to fight such experienced drivers as Alan Mac Nish and Tom Kristensen, the team simply hired... David Brabham :!: :P

The 43 years old Australian is indeed one of the most impressive endurance driver of his generation, and his last year showing with the Highcroft ACura P2 has made a strong impression at Peugeot.
Ironically, David had been turned down by Peugeot 16 years ago, to the benefit of his brother Geoff, who went to win the 24 hours with the 905. The bell of revange has rung now!

Another newbie (a fake one actually) is less surprising, Sebastien Bourdais. The frenchman is probably the most mediatic (and talented) driver of his country, (along Sebastien Loeb). One of the reason of his signing with Torro Rosso was precisely an agreement over the "exclusivity" section of his contract, wich has not been reconducted in exchange of him acepting a lower salary. So he's basically free to run for anyone this year, as long as his F1 agenda permits it.

Those two are replacement of Ricardo Zonta and Jacques Villeneuve, who, though it hurts to admit, were the slowest and most disapointing 2008 drivers. The core of 2008 drivers is kept, so Gene, Minassian, Lamy, Sarrazin, Klien, Montagny & Wurz are part of the challange again.

That makes for a very exiting line-up for Peugeot, far more balanced than before:

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The car itself is mostly unchanged (appart from reduced rear wing), and will sports a new livery (with chromed aluminium on the roof to help keeping the temps as low as possible in the cockpit).

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EDIT: corrected the problem with the pics by hosting it myself on an old geocities account... Thanks Modbaraban for the info, I thought naively this was browser-related, because those last few days there are lots of members who complain about some hotlink-protected pics in numerous topic, and everytime I can see the pic they cannot see! You just made me realise that everytime I probably had visited the hosting page before! LOL
Last edited by vyselegend on 14 Feb 2009, 03:33, edited 2 times in total.

modbaraban
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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So is that Pug hybrid now or not yet?

Btw, I was hoping Brabham to join the AMR LMP1 team :(

I saw that Audi a couple of day ago and I made me wonder why has no roof? I though the whole point of updating over the R10 was to prepare the car to 2010 regs, no?

PS: the last two planetlemans pics couldn't be hotlinked.

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vyselegend
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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modbaraban wrote:So is that Pug hybrid now or not yet?
No. The hybrid won't run in 2009.
modbaraban wrote:Btw, I was hoping Brabham to join the AMR LMP1 team :(
You weren't alone! Everybody was surprised by that move. But I'm happy, because it shows Peugeot has understand the lesson, they were rumored to be about to hire Davidson, who, though another real talent, would have been yet another F1 youngster with no Endurance experience. That choice would have been the repeat of the same mistake...
modbaraban wrote:I saw that Audi a couple of day ago and I made me wonder why has no roof? I though the whole point of updating over the R10 was to prepare the car to 2010 regs, no?
There's no obligation to run a coupe in 2010 finally. Only advantage is IF you run a coupe, and IF you choose to use a AC, you're allowed a 4mm increase of the air restrictor... The real regulations changes are for 2011, and are mostly engine related.
modbaraban wrote:PS: the last two planetlemans pics couldn't be hotlinked.
Use Opera! :wink:

Or if you don't want to, both pics are from this page

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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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vyselegend wrote:Use Opera! :wink:

Or if you don't want to, both pics are from this page
I actually do use Opera :P

Some websites have protection against hotlinking so before I copied the links and manually pasted into the browser I was getting the generic anti-hotlinking thing 'planet le mans operates with a limited budget...' insted of the pictures. You didn't see that because you previously visited the website and had the images downloaded to opera cache already :wink:

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vyselegend
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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Me again. I'm back from a short trip in south France for the LMS test days at Paul Ricard. As promised, I've taken lots of pics, but I'm having trouble with the hosting server, so for the moment I'll just post a link to my prefered one, hoping it will work.

AMR Aston LMP1

I've also recorded some of the action, and made a youtube clip. Obviously I'm not Steven Spielberg, it's not very well filmed & cut, but for the few of you who love endurance, it should be worth watching. (I hope) :wink:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p78tU-zfK0[/youtube]

modbaraban
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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Sometimes it seemed that the cameraman struggled to turn to the left even following the cars slowly cruising into the pits. That was kind of irritating. Anyways thanks for the video.

At 6:20 there's a Saleen S7-R. Is it someone from FIA GT or FFSA-GT or is it back to LMS/24DuMans? :shock:

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Petrol/Diesel equivalency & the future of Endurance

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Yes, struggled, but he was there! Thanks, vyselegend, ex-ce-llent.
Ciro