How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

[DaveW]

...there is absolutely no evidences indicating that they did not have control of the tire characteristics that were designed into this years F1 tires.

Your opinion, I think....

[hardingfv32]

...there is absolutely no evidences indicating that they did not have control of the tire characteristics that were designed into this years F1 tires.

Your opinion, I think....

I honestly do not believe there has been any evidences presented 'indicating that they did not have control of the tire characteristics that were designed into this years F1 tires'.

1) Yes, it has been stated that the tires were not consistent. BUT, do we know that was required by the supply agreement? If it was how would it be stipulated in the contract and measured?

2) Yes, it has been stated that Pirelli does not always make the best racing tire. But, is that evidence that they failed to meet their contract obligations in this case?

Are there any other facts or evidence that I have over looked?

If Jersey Tom is any indication of what we can learn from inside sources, what are the chances of anyone being able to speak with authority about Pirelli's F1 tire program other than their marketing department? So then what is to be our source of information?

Brian

[strad]

@ hardingfv32 +1

[Jersey Tom]

So then what is to be our source of information?

None. No one is going to go out and publicly lambaste a series sponsor or supplier. Well, except in NASCAR apparently. You want the whole story, you have to talk to the people directly involved. Those conversations don't get quoted. Sucks that the fans don't get to know all the real ins and outs of things, but that's how it goes.

I give them a B or C grade... that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Very curious to see how things shake out in the coming season.

[strad]

Ok JT...We'll just take your word on it.

[Jersey Tom]

Well, it is what it is. Take my word for it or don't. Makes no difference. I just call it like I see it.

What do you expect me to do here, just leak everything I hear and post it up in public? I think not.

[strad]

No....But on the other hand ya gotta offer up some kind of bona fides.
There are far too many pretenders on the web for me to just up and take a posters word cause he says....and I don't think you would either.
And just so ya know, previous experience on a whole different subject here also makes me understand your peevishness.

[DaveW]

...there is absolutely no evidences indicating that they did not have control of the tire characteristics that were designed into this years F1 tires.

Your opinion, I think....

I honestly do not believe there has been any evidences presented 'indicating that they did not have control of the tire characteristics that were designed into this years F1 tires'.

I prefer your second attempt.

Yes, it has been stated that the tires were not consistent. BUT, do we know that was required by the supply agreement? If it was how would it be stipulated in the contract and measured?

The fact might be deduced from driver comments fed through FP transmissions. The intent might be indicated by the change in tyre allocation rules, for which you have yet to post a credible alternative explanation.

You have here & elsewhere asked for details on methods of matching tyres, with (apparently) increasingly complex suggestions. I have heard tales (that is all they are) that consistency can be improved by sorting using very simple static measurements - in the garage & off the car - which, if you think about likely culprits, makes some sense. I can't elaborate, I'm afraid, because it is not my information.

[ubrben]

You have here & elsewhere asked for details on methods of matching tyres, with (apparently) increasingly complex suggestions. I have heard tales (that is all they are) that consistency can be improved by sorting using very simple static measurements - in the garage & off the car - which, if you think about likely culprits, makes some sense. I can't elaborate, I'm afraid, because it is not my information.

Putting aside the debate on Pirelli's competence for a moment, I'd be very suspicious of people sorting tyres based on measurements in the garage.

In the case of durometer hardness if you measure a tyre (and I've done this with an eye-wateringly expensive digital hardness gauge) then bounce the tyre, or roll it in some dirt, brush it clean and do the same test the value will be massively different. How do you know if one tyre was dirty from freighting and got wiped down with a bit of solvent when it was fitted. Room temp durometer measurements are meaningless as a metric from my point of view.

The other method I've read about is a sidewall indenter that pushes the sidewall of a fitted and inflated tyre and then records the deflection. Anyone got experience of that?

Back on topic - Strad: It amazes me to be honest that you can ask about how we can "really know" about things. JT's completely right, the reality and what you're told in the media about much of life, let alone motorsport are two very different things. The great thing about the web is that professionals can impart some of their knowledge in relative anonymity. This means you will learn more boards like this than anywhere else. Unfortunately you won't learn much if you assume every assertion that disagrees with you predetermined view is BS. It's fairly easy to work out who's who on here if you read closely. Do some post searches and have a think about whether we're completely ignorant BS merchants or that we might actually know more than you.

I do agree that that sounds a little arrogant, but if you do a post search you'll find virtually nothing from me on CFD, aero, engines or composites because I have no specialist knowledge. You'll find that DaveW's posts focus on rig testing and dampers, etc.

Ben

[munks]

You have here & elsewhere asked for details on methods of matching tyres, with (apparently) increasingly complex suggestions. I have heard tales (that is all they are) that consistency can be improved by sorting using very simple static measurements - in the garage & off the car - which, if you think about likely culprits, makes some sense. I can't elaborate, I'm afraid, because it is not my information.

Putting aside the debate on Pirelli's competence for a moment, I'd be very suspicious of people sorting tyres based on measurements in the garage.

I think at one point Tom mentioned a tape measure. How about measuring for conicity?

[strad]

I admit I am not a titre expert like you claim to be,,,but I don't buy a pig in a poke either.

[Jersey Tom]

Oh, for sure. And I fully support people giving things critical assessments. But, I have no reason to go out of my way and provide my CV or list of credentials here. Whether you believe things or not makes absolutely no difference to me. I'm just providing my opinion and assessment, alluding to things without completely letting the cat out of the bag.

[strad]

See thats it...What Cat? there is no cat.
And back to the subject..
I don't see how you can piss on Pirelli and say they are a bad tire when what you are seeing is a command performance. The powers that be didn't want a quality tire,,they ask for just what you saw.

[Jersey Tom]

The first tires Pirelli brought were significantly off in compounding if you ask me. One thing to ask for some give-up, but when the tire treads very rapidly disintegrate to dust all over the track.. it's obvious that things aren't what they're supposed to be. There IS such a thing as too much wear and give-up, where the cars are --- to drive and race. Took a while for Pirelli to address that issue, but they did solve it.

But as I said, it's not just about the tire performance at the track. The "other" aspects are more what I give a low score. Wish I could disclose more specifics, but I won't here.

In any event, all of this misses what I still think is the bigger issue. The racing itself is not particularly good and there is a huge disparity in competitiveness among the field. To rely on tires falling apart to make a race worth watching... is a band-aid on a much more fundamental issue.

[hardingfv32]

DaveW

I am not questioning the consistency of the tires. My statement was very precise: 'what indicates that they did not have control of the tire characteristics that were designed into this years F1 tires'. Do we know tire consistency was one of the contract requirements and how would the test value be stated in a contract?

Brian