How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

[Jersey Tom]

There are no indications they are unhappy with the product and support they got.

Because you aren't hearing or listening to the whole story.

Not going to spell it out plain as day here, but if people can't deduce what we've been trying to say here... I just give up. Not even worth contributing further here.

[DaveW]

Tires are the most advanced component in F1. They are also safety-critical components (unlike engines for example) which makes tire supply even more difficult.....

...Don't tell me the Pirelli tires had this and that problem with wear or handling. Those tires were perfectly drivable, reliable and safe.

If Dunlop was to launch pneumatic tyres for the first time on a (solid tyre) world today, health & safety would have none of it, they would clearly be too dangerous.

One property that race drivers really like is a balanced car, one that understeers (or oversteers, according to preference) in a controlled & predictable way.

If I can take you back a few years, in the late 1970's, Goodyear was the de facto tyre supplier. It was common practice then (I recall) for drivers to cycle through tyre allocations & put aside "demon" sets for qualifying & race. It's fair to say that lateral balance was seldom at the top of the agenda then, even though diff's were non-adjustable, because drivers had both front & rear bar adjusters in the cockpit (something that is not permitted today for some strange reason).

Then Michelin started to supply tyres for F1, & the remarkable thing was (apparently) the tyres no longer had to be matched. Bridgestone then repeated the feat, although later they made the mistake of mis-matching front & rear tyres, causing the rush to compensate by ballasting forward.

Pirelli appeared to achieve the correct front/rear balance, but limit handling did not appear to be good - "the tyres fell apart when they were leaned on" was one comment. I suspect the tyres have improved from that starting point, and there is no logical reason for the FIA to introduce the tyre supply rule change. It follows that one or more teams must have requested the change, presumably because they feel that to have all tyres available from the start of a meeting would be an advantage - to all the teams.

Thus far we have concentrated on F1 teams. You might spare a thought for GP2 teams who also have to struggle with the tyres, limited track time & less experienced drivers.

[hardingfv32]

[quote="Jersey Tom"]Because you aren't hearing or listening to the whole story.

I'm lost. The whole story as found in the press or this thread. You want us to be skeptical of public information but we have nothing else to judge by. We appreciate you are an expert in this field but your lack of forthrightness ...which we understand... does not advance our knowledge.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

DaveW

Thanks for the history. Your post is the kind of thing that helps advance the knowledge of the average reader.

I do not agree with your logic for the tire supply rule change, but do not have a counter logic at this time. It would seem just as logical for the FIA not to want to improve any tire issues that might exists. Why bother making a change if it does not improve some inequality among competitors. The "show" was pretty good this season, why rock the boat.

Brian

[strad]

All very nice but don't you see that what you sound like,,at least to me, is some guys saying Chevys suck,,Fords are better.
I've raced on Goodyears and Dunlops and assorted other tires, but I don't think I have raced on Pirellis, but in day to day life on road tires I haven't found anything better for a few of my cars. Corvette and Mustang Cobra included.
From where I sit you are condemning them for creating the tire they were requested to create...not one I would have asked for believe me but what they were asked for. Myself I would throw open the doors and say run what ya brung,,,but by the way, here is the spec HARD compound.

[DaveW]

Apologies, I was just trying to supply a bit of background rather than trying to rate tyre Companies. As a matter of fact, the consistency of Michelin compared with Goodyear tyres was thought to be due to "radial" compared with "cross" ply constructions - I leave others to debate that conclusion.

I also tried to show that lack of consistency was "managed" by the teams, partly through controls & partly by a "mix & match" philosophy, actually not to manage performance directly but to manage lateral balance, particularly through tyre changes.

Over the coarse of time many of the tools used to manage balance have been regulated out of the sport (why were cockpit torsion bar controls banned?). I saw the change in tyre availability rule as evidence of a need to implement a "mix & match" philosophy in the quest for "managed" balance.

Brian talked about the "show". I'm afraid I can see no benefit in race results being influenced by random variability in one component not controlled by a team. What ever else it is, I would not call that racing.

[hardingfv32]

For my general knowledge, not a confrontational question.... Questions about how a "mix & match" program would be managed.

1) May I assume you would try and test all the sets under the same time period and track condition as possible.

2) The car setup would remain static? Is any attempt made to balance the car's setup before the evaluation starts? How do I tell if the car or the tires are the reason for an imbalance? How can the evaluation be designed to answer that?

3) What is my goal with the evaluation? To find a "golden set" or to actually change the tire set combinations to get all the sets more neutral? Will the car data help with left or right side imbalance issues? In other words might only one tire in a set be changed?

4) Do I have enough life (heat cycles and milage) in the tires to go through a second set of evaluations? Is this evaluation process a net benefit? Do I need "sticker" sets for Q3 qualifying?

Brian

[DaveW]

JT offered some good advice...

[sbradley]

From a very non-technical point of view, they provided a pretty good set of tyres for most races. Of course different conditions would certainly mean a difference in performance but that almost came as a no brainer to begin with. Good first season and with all the stats they are presented, all we can do is to wait until the next for any improvements and adjustments so it could work a lot better with the cars.

[strad]

I think that no matter the manufacturer the end result would be very much the same if the same demands were made.
For myself, I think the very idea of trying to enhance the show by calling for tires that degrade rapidly is stupid and actually anti racing in that the enormous amount of clag makes for a one groove track and limits passing.
Along with no refueling should have been a demand for a hard enough tire that it could make race distance in the right hands, but that most would probably have to change once.

[hardingfv32]

For myself, I think the very idea of trying to enhance the show by calling for tires that degrade rapidly is stupid and actually anti racing in that the enormous amount of clag makes for a one groove track and limits passing.

The people with serious money on the line do not agree with you. If the "show" is to continue then it must continue to improve for the average fan. Losing a few motor "sport" purist is of no concern to this business model.

Brian

[munks]

If you look beneath the tire you will see an air bearing directly under the steel belt. Plenty of support.

Ahhh, thanks. I didn't look at that carefully and wouldn't have know what it was if I had.

I won't elaborate on the strengths and weaknesses of the machine or the data that comes off it.

Well it didn't hurt to ask ... thanks anyway.

[bill shoe]

I appreciate the insight from the responses here.

Pirelli appeared to achieve the correct front/rear balance, but limit handling did not appear to be good - "the tyres fell apart when they were leaned on" was one comment.

I like tires that fall apart a bit when leaned on. As long as the basic balance is OK then the driver SHOULD have to actively work the car to hustle it.

Truly "great" track tires will often make a car so easy to drive that my mother could set good lap times. I think tires are more interesting to drive when they are generally weaker at the limit (less grip consistency, more slip angle, etc.). If I was competing against an inferior driver then I would want rather difficult "active-driving" tires. If I was competing against a superior driver then I would want really great don't-fall-apart-when-leaned-on (passive-driving) tires so I would have a chance. If I was competing against no one then I would want the difficult tires to keep it interesting.

I suspect the Pirelli F1 tires were an (unintentional) step in the weaker-at-the-limit active-driving direction. I think this may explain the increased difference between drivers at some teams in 2011 compared to 2010 (Vettel vs Webber, Alonso vs Massa). The weaker tires are still perfectly safe and useable, but they are a better differentiator of driver skill.

I think wet driving is a good differentiator of drivers precisely because it goes in this difficult-at-the-limit direction.

[hardingfv32]

I suspect the Pirelli F1 tires were an (unintentional) step in the weaker-at-the-limit active-driving direction.

'unintentional'?.... Regardless of ones opinion of Pirelli's past, there is absolutely no evidences indicating that they did not have control of the tire characteristics that were designed into this years F1 tires.

Brian

[strad]

The people with serious money on the line do not agree with you. If the "show" is to continue then it must continue to improve for the average fan.

It's thinking like that that ruins ANY sport.
When you dumb it down for the "average" fan you in fact ruin it for everybody.
When you try to please everyone you wind you pleasing no one.
If yoyu limit passing how does that help anyone enjoy the show...That Kills me by the way..The show? F that. That's when itall started going wron...When Bernie and Max started caring about "the show"
Try caring about the racing and the rest will take care of it's self.