Monocoque Bonding

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ReedMann
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Joined: 14 Jul 2014, 03:49

Monocoque Bonding

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Does anyone have any good images of how teams bond the top and bottom halves of their monocoques together? What type of joints do they use? Types of adhesive?

Thanks.

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: Monocoque Bonding

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ReedMann
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Re: Monocoque Bonding

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flynfrog wrote:Check out this older thread

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =6&t=13148

Thanks for the link. I had already seen this thread. It's hard to tell what type of joint they are using. I think some teams do a single piece layup, but I know some teams still do the upper and lower half method. I imagine that pictures are hard to find as most teams keep this stuff under wraps. One of the US F1 videos also shows the top and bottom halves, but I can't tell how they interlock. I guess I'll keep scouring Google images.

ReedMann
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Joined: 14 Jul 2014, 03:49

Re: Monocoque Bonding

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Looking closer at these couple pictures, the joint sort of resembles a tongue and groove.

Image

Image

Image

Based on the interview here, it seems like tongue and groove is used in sports cars.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/bentleyelleray.html
However, they were conventional in as far as they used a top and bottom section joined by a tongue and grove joint at the waistline (just below the door aperture).
So it seems the tongue is fairly thick and the groove is rather skinny. Thoughts?

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flynfrog
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Re: Monocoque Bonding

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I think the difference in thickness is just where one side has the core and the other doesnt.

gambler
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Re: Monocoque Bonding

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It appears that the "tongue" edges that meet each other are open to the core to allow the glue to get some tooth making the butt part of the joint stronger, maybe?

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flynfrog
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Re: Monocoque Bonding

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gambler wrote:It appears that the "tongue" edges that meet each other are open to the core to allow the glue to get some tooth making the butt part of the joint stronger, maybe?
There is no strength in that direction on the core. The tongue is to double the surface area of the bond. Tooth for a bond is kind of misunderstood. You don't need a super rough surface. You do need good surface activation and good surface wetting.

flyboy2160
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Joined: 25 Apr 2011, 17:05

Re: Monocoque Bonding

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ff's totally correct about the strength direction of the core - it's only good in the direction of the cell walls. To join those very irregular adjacent core cell side walls in this type of joint, an expanding foam adhesive is typically used.

I'm surprised that the skins themselves aren't lapped over or a skin splice strip added, but maybe they aren't showing that.

hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Monocoque Bonding

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What is a common way to surface activate epoxy?

Brian

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flynfrog
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Re: Monocoque Bonding

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hardingfv32 wrote:What is a common way to surface activate epoxy?

Brian
Hand sanding or abrasive blasting. Time is critical you lose activation as time goes on.

http://www.niar.wichita.edu/niarworksho ... 0_JimM.pdf

http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data ... _Guide.pdf

http://www.jams-coe.org/docs/JAMS08_pre ... .Flinn.pdf

http://www.cozybuilders.org/Oshkosh_Pre ... sh2005.pdf

http://www.niar.wichita.edu/agate/docum ... -01-08.pdf

some reading if you are so inclined.

ReedMann
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Joined: 14 Jul 2014, 03:49

Re: Monocoque Bonding

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flynfrog wrote:I think the difference in thickness is just where one side has the core and the other doesnt.
The way I interpret it is that the upper half of the tub has an absence of core about an inch deep along the bottom edge. The bottom half of the tub has excess core extending about an inch along the top edge. The core interlocks between the upper and lower halves to create the joint.

Is that what you were getting at?

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flynfrog
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Re: Monocoque Bonding

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ReedMann wrote:
flynfrog wrote:I think the difference in thickness is just where one side has the core and the other doesnt.
The way I interpret it is that the upper half of the tub has an absence of core about an inch deep along the bottom edge. The bottom half of the tub has excess core extending about an inch along the top edge. The core interlocks between the upper and lower halves to create the joint.

Is that what you were getting at?
Yep. there are few ways to get the same or close to the same result. Check out the links I posted

riff_raff
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Monocoque Bonding

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flynfrog wrote:There is no strength in that direction on the core. The tongue is to double the surface area of the bond. Tooth for a bond is kind of misunderstood. You don't need a super rough surface. You do need good surface activation and good surface wetting.
With a lap joint between composite laminate skins, other factors like ply orientations and ply drops are also important. The relative shear stiffness at the skin and adhesive interface can affect the bond strength. That is why you would design the skin at the joint with a taper and a very thin free edge. The thin free edge of the skin minimizes the tendency of the adhesive bond to peel.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Monocoque Bonding

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Thin free?? how do you mean?
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riff_raff
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Monocoque Bonding

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n smikle-

Sorry, I guess "free edge" was not the best description to use. A better description might be "extreme edge".

When creating an adhesive lap joint, the extreme edge of each panel should be tapered as thin as practical so that it has no bending stiffness. If the extreme edge of the panel at the adhesive bond interface has very little bending stiffness, it won't be able to peel at this location.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"