Ferrari brake duct\wheel fairings (silverstone)

[flynfrog]

...wait aren't they running one on the rear now

Yes one, as the other one fell off in Nurburgring.

PS: poor animal.

It's dead

sorry i found my self hilarious

[DaveKillens]

When I stated "we just don't need them", it was my opinion that if everyone was forced not to use such devices, it really would not detract from the racing.

As someone who has closely watched racing live and on TV from the mid 60's, I've seen my share of accidents, both inconsequential and fatal. Safety keeps improving, but sadly and tragically, accidents will continue to happen, and drivers will die. It's the nature of the beast. Hopefully it will not happen for a very long time, but eventually, a driver will die in F1 and everyone will suffer the tragedy and shock of such a sad event.
I do agree with manchild's philosophy that safety always needs attention and improvement. What's debatable what needs to be addressed and what doesn't. That's the hard part because there has to some sane and realistic balance between performance and entertainment and safety.
The application of the devices by Ferrari are to be applauded in how they have found a grey area in the rules and made a useful application. But they do posess a potential for disaster, witness the stray fairing on the front straight at Nurburgring. yes, nothing ill came of it, but it never should have happened, and more important, it should never be allowed to happen again.

[modbaraban]

The simplest and logical decision for 2008 would be homologated rims (the 'freeze' of current ones) with nothing placed on their outer side.

[flynfrog]

When I stated "we just don't need them", it was my opinion that if everyone was forced not to use such devices, it really would not detract from the racing.

As someone who has closely watched racing live and on TV from the mid 60's, I've seen my share of accidents, both inconsequential and fatal. Safety keeps improving, but sadly and tragically, accidents will continue to happen, and drivers will die. It's the nature of the beast. Hopefully it will not happen for a very long time, but eventually, a driver will die in F1 and everyone will suffer the tragedy and shock of such a sad event.
I do agree with manchild's philosophy that safety always needs attention and improvement. What's debatable what needs to be addressed and what doesn't. That's the hard part because there has to some sane and realistic balance between performance and entertainment and safety.
The application of the devices by Ferrari are to be applauded in how they have found a grey area in the rules and made a useful application. But they do posess a potential for disaster, witness the stray fairing on the front straight at Nurburgring. yes, nothing ill came of it, but it never should have happened, and more important, it should never be allowed to happen again.

how ws the stry fairng anymore dangerous than the beaver in canada or the bird at indy/

or any more dangerous than any other apart of the car for that matter front wings break off fairly often given the choice ill take a wheel fairing any day

I am not saying we should quit trying to make racing safer but it gets to a point where you are banning trivial stuff when something like say a beer can thrown by a fan is much more dangerous.

[manchild]

how ws the stry fairng anymore dangerous than the beaver in canada or the bird at indy/...

FIA's main role is to take care of the safety. They can ban fairings and prevent tragedies, animals they can't prevent BUT if those are 2 dangers mentioned removing one of them reduces improves safety for 50%. Things that can be prevented should be prevented. If FIA is aware of them and does nothing despite being paid and responsible for prevention than it should stop existing because with or without it safety level will remain the same.

Me not being satisfied with current safety level is a positive thing. Saying "oh well, F1 was always dangerous" isn't a positive thing. They need constant improvement based on research - not due to stuff learned from accidents.

Only the recent history examples -

Gilles Villeneuve killed - FIA bans skirts/ground effect
De Angelis killed - FIA bans Halon
Ratzenberger, Senna killed - FIA changes so many things on car

etc. etc.

If FIA analyzed things just a little bit same changes made after tragedies could have been made before them (at least several years - relative to technology available). If CF shoulder and head protection could have been imposed from 1994 onwards why couldn't it been imposed prior to that? Why? Because no one in FIA was analyzing a thing but just went with the flow.

Just wait and see how will hairpin in Canada look in 2008. I say that it will be changed a lot (tyre barriers etc.). Why? Because Kubica crashed. Not because someone at the FIA was analyzing track and came to conclusion that hairpin is dangerous.

FIA also announced that because of DC - Wurz incident it will change cockpit design for 2008. Same pattern.

See what I mean?

[scarbs]

I've kept out of this thread since it detracted from the techical issue of the fairings and moved into safety & FIA bashing. I dont see how the fairing is any more dangerous than other pieces of bodywork that run along the sid eof the car. The flip ups and footplates on the front wing endplates are just as thin and prominent, but there's been no outcry over those.

The bodywork rules only state that bodwork ahead of the front wheels needs to be either rounded or angled back at so many degrees. It strikes me the wheel fairing are no ahead of the front wheels and still meet the rules.

I dont doubt there needs to be a review of the brake duct regs, wording them without the teams findign loopholes could be difficult though.

[manchild]

I've kept out of this thread since it detracted from the techical issue of the fairings and moved into safety & FIA bashing. I dont see how the fairing is any more dangerous than other pieces of bodywork that run along the sid eof the car. The flip ups and footplates on the front wing endplates are just as thin and prominent, but there's been no outcry over those.

Well, if Ferrari had them in Germany for example Massa would have cut Alonso's tyre. Without them it was just touching. Difference is huge.

Agreed, the flip ups and footplates on the front wing endplates are dangerous and strangely out of 10mm roundness rule. Why? I don't know. Teams are not protesting and scrutineering stewards seam to overlook that. I guess it's all because of politics that comes ahead of everything.

[scarbs]

I'd have thought a large rounded static fairing would be safer in a impact with a tyre, than an exposed spinnign metal wheel. A bit like the plastic rim protectors used in Karking. The new fin is so thin that it would more likely fly off than cut a tyre in an impact.

I'd get more panicky about the fins near the cockpit being driven towards the driver should a tyre be pushed back into the cockpit in a crash.

[FLC]

If that was the way to ban things, according to the amount of times they fell off from cars and thanks to Mclaren in recent years, we would end up with homologated rear wings, suspension and what not. Let's just homologate everything right now and that's it. We'll be safe and sound.

[manchild]

I'm not for homologation but safety is everything - competition comes after that. Current safety leves have been paid by heads of many drivers. Let's not forget that and let's not behave like we haven't learned anything from the past and wait for new safety improvements to come as the result of another funeral.

[FLC]

Safety is very important, and nobody wants to see funerals, but there's got to be a limit. Racing is a dangerous business by definition and everyone involved in it knows that. The current safety levels are not bad at all (although I think certain tracks require immediate actions) and they proved to be efficient by saving RK's life in Canada. Of course, There's always room for improvements, but I think your reaction to Ferrari's wheels is way over the line, and motivated by other reasons than pure safety reasons. I truly do not think that those wheels are any more, if at all, dangerous than other parts that we've mentioned and which should be taken care of a lot before these frisbees.

[manchild]

I truly do not think that those wheels are any more, if at all, dangerous than other parts that we've mentioned and which should be taken care of a lot before these frisbees.

Those other parts are firmly secured to bodywork while fairings and winglets move in 3 dimensions. On top of that, it is not passive movement caused by air stream or suspension travel but dependable on direct input by driver via steering mechanism which makes them not just movable but also active aerodynamic element.

+1

Ferrari's and other team rear fairings rotate and move in 3D with addition that Ferrari's front fairings don't rotate but move in 3D. When Brabham's fan car appeared and got attacked for movable aero they said that fan is a part of the cooling system necessary for car's normal performance. It got banned for next race although its fan only rotated without moving in 3D. FIA was very efficient than and had good eyesight.

+2

And yes... mass damper was banned too for being movable aero device without having contact with air and not moving in 3D. If THAT was illegal what are than fairings and winglets?

[FLC]

If you already chose to pick the Nurburgrung incident as an example, than I suggest you take a second look at the various footage of it. Massa and Alonso did not touch wheels. If anything, Massa's front right was the one that could've easily been punctured, since he touched Alonso's sidepod area, which as you can see in the picture below is packed with hazardous devices which you probably just forgot to preach for their banning (or overlooked them for being manufactured by other teams than Ferrari):



Oh wait, those don't move in all 3 dimensions, so lets just put that in the rules, that if it moves in 2D it is perfectly safe. And this is from a guy who says he is devoted to safety. Give me a break.

You know what, lets just make all cars look like this:



We'll make them even rounder so that it meets your safety requirements, and surely put some regular rims instead of those dangerous frisbees!

On a more serious note, the current rules are not enough to bring for the banning of Ferrari's solution. I don't think that RD would wait a min. before he complained on them, if he could prove that they are illegal, nor other team managers as Briatore and maybe even Thiessen. Nobody will tell you that they do not help the car aerodynamically, but there is a huge hole in the book that lets Ferrari define them as other things, namely brake ducts, and thus perfectly legal. Until they change the rules you should except that. The safety argument sounds very nice and moral, but it is not a valid one when you consider the various other devices which create the same, to say the least, circumstances for a dangerous outcome.

[manchild]

I didn't say that 2D movable gadgets should be declared legal. I tried to say that if FIA bans 2D movable gadgets than there is no logic in not banning 3D movable gadgets (as well as those that are moving 3D + rotating). Just compare dynamic and aerodynamic influence of mass damper with fairings on rear or front wheels.

If fairings were considered dangerous and illegal for many decades how come all of the sudden they become legal and safe despite the fact that regulations in that area didn't change a bit?

[mini696]

...Alonso's sidepod area, which as you can see in the picture below is packed with hazardous devices which you probably just forgot to preach for their banning (or overlooked them for being manufactured by other teams than Ferrari):

Lets quit with the personal attack hey? No wonder Scarbs avoids posts like this.