2009 Tyre Warmers ban - An improvement to driver safety?

[Ogami musashi]

i don't...that's actually 10s/lap more...216km/h average instead of 236 at barcelona.

If it's 2sec/lap okay...not 10.

by the way, the more grip your tyre develop, the narrower is the temperature window, hence the greater is the grip differential.

Think about it, those slicks are NOT like Champ car, GP2 or whatever you want tyres.

With 50% downforce, they post even better times than grooved+2008 downforce.

[WhiteBlue]

I dont think they needed to hire any additional people to put on or take off the blankets. You would still need the same number of people per tyre at the pitstops

I can't actually find something on the net to confirm or denie that. probably only a race team manager can answer the question if they have to budget workforce. I have figured that the cost of the kit to a team is approximately 200,000 $. With the change of dimensions next year that woulf hit every team. so you are looking at $ 2.4 million.

lets asume they need 2 tyre handlers more if they preheat and the guys cost 150,000 $ per head inc. travel to 19 races. the personel cost would be $ 3.6 million

total cost $ 6 mil isn't a great deal for F1. if you calculate a lot more accident damage due to the shunts from cold tyres the savings could be nil.

I think the sporting and safety aspects are more important, but they weren't discussed at the time of proposing that rule by the FIA in 2005.

[NickT]

come on guys if the best drivers on the planet can't get the best out of a set of cold tyres while warming them up, then there is something seriously wrong and they shouldn't be in the sport

Didn't most of them come up through the lower ranks without tyre warmers The complaints I suspect will be coming from the teams because it takes something out of their control and places it squarely on the driver God help us, he is going to have to do it all on his own without traction control, oh my the sky will fall in and the world is flat

Senna would have welcomed the change, he hated anything that de-skilled the job of driving and brought the masses closer to his genius

"Just shut up and drive"

[Ciro Pabón]

I don't think the drivers are complaining about the blankets as much as about the fact that FIA has discovered that is really popular any measure that hamper the drivers. When you argue against it, most people just say something like: "real drivers can take this. Aren't you a real driver?"

Maybe we don't realize how close to the limit an F1 car is driven... maybe. Or maybe not.

This is getting a little weird, I think. It amuses me to think what will be next... throwing sand in their eyes before the first lap? That would suuuuurely make racing much more interesting (specially if you're interested in races with few cars).

The "cost cutting" you get from that, I think, amounts to the cost of coffe served in the paddock. I did not calculate the exact amount, but the girls that serve it could also be fired . At 2.500 pounds the hour.... (Max's rates) let's see. Damn, those girls are expensive.

You could also save a little on the HANS supports, the track lateral lines, or the barriers... After all, real drivers don't need sidelines... do they? Nahhhh...

Real drivers can drive at night, in the rain, blinded, with loose cows running around the track and with Chuck Norris as co-pilot. Real drivers can do anything!

All this money could be re-invested in bigger paddocks for VIPs, or in heliports, or in Formula 1-X or whatever is the name of the park in Dubai or Bahrain or one of these places full of poor people that really needs to be entertained.

The "serious" part of this post (if there's any) is that I've shown in this forum (till everybody died of boredom and/or yawning) that the overtaking hasn't improved in the last decade or so. Meanwhile FIA has changed regulations the way some people change shoes. Speeds are also fairly constant, but, hey, who cares?

Sometimes I think that at FIA there is a room full of jokers like me. Each one of them does not drive, does not marshall, does not build a car. All they have is nice shiny rulebook in their cubicles and 8 hours a day to spend between races. They just sit in front of the book, thinking: "What can I come up with today?". Once in a while, one of them stands up and says:

"Guys, guys, hear this: what if we make them use turbines? And what about mandatory clown noses for the drivers?"

If everybody laughs hard at the predicament of the teams, the rule is immediately approved... (mmmmm.... mandatory clown noses. We could have struck something here. Now, that's entertainement...)

On the other hand, I'm suuuuure the teams won't come up with a truly expensive gadget that tries to compensate for the tyre blankets, that costs an eye and that throws us in an endless thread about its legality. After all, they are gentleman that think only about entertaining people, it's not like the life of the engineers depends on winning, isn't it?

It's not like everybody would reevaluate if it's better just one stop during the race, or they have to redesign the entire damn car to put more fuel on board, or that the new tyres will invalidate a few thousand hours of wind tunnel, or anything like that.

Or is it?

Sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to be sarcastic, it's just that I got a good laugh writing this post... you can dismiss it immediately.

[mcdenife]

Ciro wrote:

Sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to be sarcastic, it's just that I got a good laugh writing this post... you can dismiss it immediately.

I would dismiss it except its the only realistic/convincing argument that makes sence in this thread so far. Sometimes I despair for the drivers who wont speak up or stand up and be counted. When he raced, Schumacher rarely, if ever, commented on new regs no matter how questionable. Now, he no longer races and so has nothing to prove (or lose). Its saying something therefore when even he now questions this ban. So I am inclined to believe and listen to him, when he says there is NO cost savings to be made by banning the blankets, rather than the
throw-sand-in-their-eyes-before-the-first-lap-to-make-it-more-interesting (AKA armchair) brigade

[CMSMJ1]

I think your last post was superb Ciro

The issue I have is that they (meaning the FIA) keep trying to tell the teams how to spend their money. The tyre warmers are an insignificant cost compared to the coffee ladies, you are right about that!

The point I would make about the warmers is that they are not used in any other formulae anywhere near as much as in F1 and we are only talking about not having pre warmed tyres after a pitstop. This will make in/out laps more dangerous and the guys that wish to push will then get the benefit.

I would prefer that the pit lane limit is reduced to 50kph to dissuade teams from relying on a stop to pass guys.

[Ciro Pabón]

CMSMJ1, sorry for reposting so soon, but somehow, while chuckling and writing my previous post I forgot to mention that the tyres in F1 (I think) are not like the tyres in other formulas.

They exude a sticky liquid, or so I've posted here before (a thousand times, sorry), so they are not as much worn as dried out. This makes them have a superb grip, but also they don't behave as normal tyres when cold, that makes them unpredictable. I gladly will receive any corrections on this issue.

Why Tires Grip The Road: New Theory Reduces Testing

[CMSMJ1]

No worries Sir - post away!

If the tyres are different to "normal" tyres then all so much the better. We will begin to see tyres being developed that will reflect well on the new generations of road tyres with enhanced warmup and longevity.

Bridgestone will have to develop a tyre that works from cold and I see no problem with that.

Regarding the properties of F1 tyres I concur that it is not so much wear that stops the grip but the consumption through heat of the volatile compounds in the rubber. They are very close to being molten when they are in their operating range and you can imagine the contact patch being forced into the tiny craks in the asphalt and generating so much mechanical grip. Also the chemical properties of the rubber generates much grip but as am no chemist I cannot offer opinion on the amount of force generated by this.

[Miguel]

Does anybody know if the rule specifically mentions blankets? Or is any warming device outlawed? I mean, some teams might want to store their tires in a "tire room", with temperatures closer to a sauna. Another option is a "solarium". Let's see what light do tires absorb the most and then let's light with it. You know, kinda like microwave ovens but designed for rubber instead of water.

I'm sure all of this is soo much cheaper than a simple electic blanket.

[bazanaius]

Belatti wrote:
Sure that some drivers will bitch, but true drivers will apdapt

Also, tires are the same, so working temp. range is equal for everyone. We wont have a battle where the best tire manufacturer wins, we will have a battle where the best DRIVER wins, and that my friends, is what we want! Or Not?

Have to agree, it adds another variable and another element of driver skill, this is a drivers' championship after all. Besides I don't leave my car's wrapped up in a set of tyre warmers at night ready for the sprint race for the office.

Well there is a constructors championship as well. I for one think that F1 wouled not be the same if everyone had the same thing. Half the fun for me is watching the cars develop week to week - the drivers don't develop half as quickly. For me its the combination of driver and car adapting and developing together that makes F1 so unique.

B

[Belatti]

I can understand you Ciro with the safety matter.
What I can´t understand is that you seem to be opposed to any rule changing because the dangers of adaptative times, let alone costs involved.
I also think sometimes that FIA rule designers are inexperienced dumbasses, but we can´t have an eternal rulebook. When competitiveness is lost something has to be done because armchair brigade is the one that keeps sport alive.
Throwing sand or lack of lateral lines sounds very exagerated, banning tire warmers don´t. After all they will be faster than running in a wet track, slower enought to crash but not to get killed. A 20km speed diference doesn´t smash people.

We know F1 cars are driven close to the limit, so that means GT cars doesn´t? How about bikes?
They stablish the limit! If they go off track cause cold tyres, then drive carefuly and a bit slower.
And yes, real drivers can do anything!
If not I would be LOVE to have a chance to sit into a F1 car and get a hell out of it! Bring it on baby! Here there is a man! Brave till stupidity if you wish!

Sorry for the rant, but hey, what the f*ck! All my life I have done stupid dangerous things and I think they all worthed it. It proves me I´m alive! I would hate to live being careful and then die out of cancer when I´m 40!

So don´t we overexagerate, they are just tire warmers, not big issue.

[bizadfar]

Cars with cool tires, exiting the pits will be inside that 120% you mention in their first lap. Is not that we will see speed diferences like Malaysia qualy. Thus safety is OK in my opinion.

And it will be great to see drivers struggle to maintain position in "first out of pit lap" when coming in front of a rival with already heated tires!

After reading your point Belatti, I would change my vote...

There would be an aweful lot of overtaking just due to that. Now the drivers will more than likeley NOT let them pass either, because it would actually be for position... At least till the warm tyre car stops.

Chris

hmm it made no effective difference in v8 supercars, although it was exciting when someone not in contention for position (i mean hasnt pitted yet) was hustling a guy on his outlap. That's all.

I see it as an added factor that the driver has to adapt to after a pitstop:
far different balance/grip level as well as new/increased fuel load and how they can handle the car under pressure from behind. Like other rule changes, it will be good for a few races when the rule comes into effect and a few odd cases here and there since everyone will adapt.

[WhiteBlue]

interesting input from DC

David Coulthard has voiced doubts that new regulations due to come into force in 2009 will have the intended effect of spicing up the racing.

Slick tyres will be reintroduced next season, while new aerodynamic rules will drastically reduce downforce levels.

The aim is to reduce the cars’ sensitivity to turbulence by ensuring that a greater proportion of their grip is generated from the tyres and less from external aerodynamic surfaces, thereby making overtaking easier.

But in his exclusive itv.com/f1 column Coulthard questioned whether the rule changes will achieve that objective.

He wrote: “I’m sceptical it will have a big effect, because there will always be quicker cars that qualify at the front and slower cars that qualify at the back – and why would the slower car be able to pass the quicker car just because it’s less upset by turbulence?
“It just won’t happen.”
Coulthard reckons a better alternative would be to outlaw mid-race refuelling, which he says has narrowed the strategic options available to the teams.

“It’s ironic that refuelling was introduced to spice up the spectacle, yet it has probably had the opposite effect,” he wrote.

“There’s no question in my mind that banning refuelling would create more lap time variation and improve the racing.”

After simulating 2009 conditions at this week’s Barcelona test, several drivers have criticised the planned ban on tyre warmers and called for a rethink.

Coulthard agrees that the likely speed differential between cars on cold tyres and those running flat-out with their tyres at full operating temperature may prove hazardous.

“I feel there is a genuine safety concern,” he wrote.

“It cannot be good to have big speed differentials between cars.

“The worst case scenario would be an accident at somewhere like Monaco between one car travelling slowly on the line on cold tyres and another arriving at full speed.

“I know some people will argue that motor racing is dangerous and it should be up to the drivers to handle the challenges thrown at them, but this seems an unnecessary additional risk for no real benefit.”

I feel that the tyre warmer issue is more of a sporting issue. Do we want the drivers to do a more difficult and potentially dangerous job? it means weighting the handicaps versus the safety. I think both ways can be honorably argued.

With DC's input we are looking at a new can of worms. We havn't heard about this old dilemma for a long time in public debate but the issue is very valid and deserves consideration.

Present refuelling rules demotivate what all spectators want to see. real on track racing! the clever teams and drivers work out a race strategy around refuelling which requires some fast laps for 10% of the race and a snore during the other 90%. do we really want that? probably not!

In my view we have a massive safety problem with refueling since it was introduced. nearly every year we have seen accidents with the refueling kit. pit fires, flash fires, run over refuelling men, torn off refulling hoses. on average it happens every year.

so why don't we look into DC's proposal here in greater detail? it could be well worth it!

[Conceptual]

The other option would be a reversion the 2005 spec Bridgestones, ungrooved(1 set for entire race) tyres. Everyone would start on cold tyres, and that's it. They would probably last even more since the V8 doesnt apply the same torque that the V10's did.

Just an idea.

Chris

[Neophiliac]

I don't think the drivers are complaining about the blankets as much as about the fact that FIA has discovered that is really popular any measure that hamper the drivers.
It's not like everybody would reevaluate if it's better just one stop during the race, or they have to redesign the entire damn car to put more fuel on board, or that the new tyres will invalidate a few thousand hours of wind tunnel, or anything like that.

Or is it?

Sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to be sarcastic, it's just that I got a good laugh writing this post... you can dismiss it immediately.

First post here

Agree with you Ciro and the quoted part is something that I've been thinking of for a while. With all the talk from the drivers about the need to evaluate further or wait until they have a chance to test more compounds - when are they going to finally settle on the issue?

The worst thing to happen in terms of costs is for FIA to change its course sometime around August... when the teams have sort of settled on the tank size but it's not completely too late to change it. With a 10-sec per lap deficiency (and is it more than 1 lap, by the way?), 1-stoppers should become the norm. And without having done a calculation, I'm thinking that some brave souls may try to run with no stops at some place like Monza, if the tyres take a couple of laps to get up to speed. Change the rule, and everybody is scrambling to try and reduce tank sizes again, back to 2008 and find a better way to package that 60-kilo KERS.

And in the meantime, while the rule is still in place, Bridgestone will spend a few mil trying to develop tyres that work at ambient.

So I say bring back the blankets now and stop the brain damage.