## F1 2009 cornering speeds

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Someone said a peak of 2.5 was possible with slicks. Is it for real? I mean, if current tires peak at about 1.5~1.7, 2.5 does seem like a lot. Some other people are suggesting 2, so it might not be too excessive.

By the way, I've done a very quick estimate with a simple model. Here, the red line is 2009 downforce compared to 2008 levels (green line). The blue line is the square root of the red line, indicating the relative cornering speed.

I've supposed a tire whose characteristics remain static and aero downforce proportional to v². I've also supposed:
• current cars generate their mass in downforce at 160 km/h.
• mu(2008)=1.7 and mu (2009)=2.0
• downforce(2009)=0.6*downforce(2008)
It may be simplistic, but it gives an idea on how it works. Oh, and sorry for the axis and units. X axis is speed on km/h and Y axis is dimensionless.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr
Miguel

Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Ok, thanks for that Miguel. So we can assume that the initial acceleration of the cars will be significantly superior to that of this year? The current cars can roughly do 0-100km/h in 2.2 seconds...I wonder how much faster the new cars will be.

If we say the average speed of the cars over a lap is usually 200km/h for most tracks, the cars will have roughly 95% the cornering ability? This will be offset by more traction out of slow corners and a higher top speed (if the drag levels are offset). Hmm, that makes sense from the recent testing times

'10-'11 Head of Powertrain - Glasgow University Formula Student
Scotracer

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Miguel wrote:Someone said a peak of 2.5 was possible with slicks. Is it for real? I mean, if current tires peak at about 1.5~1.7, 2.5 does seem like a lot. Some other people are suggesting 2, so it might not be too excessive.

Sorry i was waiting for a confirmation from a competition michelin engineer.
Yes 2.5 is possible and very much likely. According to this guy 3 is even possible but the cars would then be very un reponsive to direction changes and of course tyres would oppose a lot of friction.

2006 grooved tyres already notched 2 at their peak (could you believe it?? 2 in real race conditions!).

He did tell me something, interesting, in 2004 they fournished some narrow front tyres for some F1 teams because the teams were to test about the drag reduction benefits of those narrow tyres. The results were that the lap time was worst so finally they inverted back to big front tyre and eventually went for bigger front tyres (ferrari especially).

Of course those friction coeficient are to be taken carefully, depending on the conditions in race (straight line or turning, temperatures,downforce, load transferts etc..) the coeficient vary a lot.

But overall this explain why the lap times with the slicks are so good.
Ogami musashi

Joined: 13 Jun 2007

Ogami musashi wrote:Sorry i was waiting for a confirmation from a competition michelin engineer.
Yes 2.5 is possible and very much likely. According to this guy 3 is even possible but the cars would then be very un reponsive to direction changes and of course tyres would oppose a lot of friction.

2006 grooved tyres already notched 2 at their peak (could you believe it?? 2 in real race conditions!).

Wooot??? 3??? 3 is like Oh. My. God. Now, seriously, thank you for bothering. I usually don't have a connection with real life and it is stunning what the rubber guys have managed. It could actually happen that the slicks are so much better that even with a huge df reduction, better laptimes are possible everywhere except in places with ultra-quick (but not flat out) corners. However, with no tire wars, I'd bet we'll get some tires that are not so grippy, but much more driveable.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr
Miguel

Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Would it be possible for some over-takes round the out-side of long corners with the slicks?

I'm not sure if marbling would have a greater or lesser effect on the grip levels.

A thought just occured to me, would it be possible to clean the dirty side of the track around some corners while the race is going on? Like a series of small suction fans that would suck the marbles of rubber off the track.
Just a thought as I think this would provide some extra space to properly use the, alleged, grip levels of the slicks with some bold moves.
"It could be done manually. It would take quite a while, but it could be done. There is however a much more efficient and accurate way of getting the data. Men with lasers." Wing Commander Andy Green
roost89

Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: Highlands, Scotland

roost89 wrote:Would it be possible for some over-takes round the out-side of long corners with the slicks?

That first question is very hard to tell, lots of calculations with different accelerations and localisations.

roost89 wrote:I'm not sure if marbling would have a greater or lesser effect on the grip levels.

From a pure mathematical point, if the portion of total grip coming from tyre is higher then for a given decrease in grip you have more effects.

The question is then "What does a marble represent as a fraction of grip lost?" in theory less than on a grooved tyre since there's more surface but the real answer is unknown..

roost89 wrote:A thought just occured to me, would it be possible to clean the dirty side of the track around some corners while the race is going on? Like a series of small suction fans that would suck the marbles of rubber off the track.
Just a thought as I think this would provide some extra space to properly use the, alleged, grip levels of the slicks with some bold moves.

I think there should be far less marbles next year, so that should be okay.

By the way it seems the 2 meter track has been dropped, so next year cars will finally still be 1.8m wide...So tyres will be same dimensions than now.

In any case, the 2009 regulations on FIA website are confirmed to be totally obsolete!
Ogami musashi

Joined: 13 Jun 2007

Ogami musashi wrote:
roost89 wrote:Would it be possible for some over-takes round the out-side of long corners with the slicks?

That first question is very hard to tell, lots of calculations with different accelerations and localisations.

roost89 wrote:I'm not sure if marbling would have a greater or lesser effect on the grip levels.

From a pure mathematical point, if the portion of total grip coming from tyre is higher then for a given decrease in grip you have more effects.

The question is then "What does a marble represent as a fraction of grip lost?" in theory less than on a grooved tyre since there's more surface but the real answer is unknown..

roost89 wrote:A thought just occured to me, would it be possible to clean the dirty side of the track around some corners while the race is going on? Like a series of small suction fans that would suck the marbles of rubber off the track.
Just a thought as I think this would provide some extra space to properly use the, alleged, grip levels of the slicks with some bold moves.

I think there should be far less marbles next year, so that should be okay.

By the way it seems the 2 meter track has been dropped, so next year cars will finally still be 1.8m wide...So tyres will be same dimensions than now.

In any case, the 2009 regulations on FIA website are confirmed to be totally obsolete!

That is great to hear! Whilst I loved the look of the mid-90's cars (the Ferrari F310B was porn!), having a very small rear wing on the current cars and massive tyres would just look very odd. The current cars on slicks look great!

Now, this brings us back to wing dimensions: If the track is 1.8, that means the front-wing will reach to the total extremity of the cars width. Hmm, not sure if I'm all for that.

'10-'11 Head of Powertrain - Glasgow University Formula Student
Scotracer

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Yes the front wing will reach the extremities and patrick head said that it will be of course represent more front wing damage in case of close following but that it was considered and accepted by teams.

I'm also a bit relieved about that, it will means less drag than planned and the rear wing will look less ridiculous.

By the way, it had been adopted that a hole nose like the ferrari one would be banned in 2009.
Ogami musashi

Joined: 13 Jun 2007

Ogami musashi wrote:.... In any case, the 2009 regulations on FIA website are confirmed to be totally obsolete!

yes, we are back to the bad old ways in terms of keeping the public informed. during the 2004-2006 FIA/GPMA confrontation the FIA kept that web site up to date and all the rules and drafts were very informative.

since the majority voting started in 2007 for the 2008/2009 rules they hardly bother to do updates any more. they send the stuff to the teams and apparently those who have good team contacts get priviledged information.

ordinary people who have an interest in how the rules evolve cannot follow the debate any more. its a shame. it can't be so much work to give us an update on a draft once in a while. There is plenty of confirmation that everything substantial is fixed and only minor aero details are still under discussion.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Well the regulations are visibly really different from the one published so that makes time, but AFAIK, the regulations are about to be uploaded before the WMSC in june.
Ogami musashi

Joined: 13 Jun 2007

Let's hope that in the secret regulations they'll throw in turbos. It's just me or do the wings seem similar?

Scotracer's 2009 version BTW, thanks a lot, and welcome Scott.

Brabham BMW BT54 Turbo, circa 1985, what a beauty
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ciro
Ciro Pabón

Joined: 10 May 2005

Yeah, they do look similar. I have to say, the car I think looks closest is:

Mclaren MP4-5B from 1990. The rear wing is so close.

It was my pleasure making that picture, I am fanatical about the sport and it had to be done

On to the front-wing: I think the FIA will reconsider the the front wing dimensions. Lowering the front wing to the mid-90's level should be sufficient to overcome the turbulent wake of the car infront (especially with the rear-wing being raised).

'10-'11 Head of Powertrain - Glasgow University Formula Student
Scotracer

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Rersonally i can see a few problems for the teams on 2009 cars;

- KERS, a untried tech development in the F1 world, may turn out good in the end, but i suspect that the first 40-60% of next season there will be many KERS related retirements.

- Old developments in say the R26 Mass Damper or BAR Honda torque transfer thhing on the front wheels may be concidered to be a "Energy recovery system" uhder the KERS regs, whitch means that drivers will get those systems "back" to some extent.

- Tyres, there will be more risk marbeling/graining/blisters when the drivers push their cars too hard, not looking after the tyres meaning they will become moving chicanes, also drivers will try that "extra lap" on them and a tyre will explode or just delaminate completly or do a Lewis at China.

- Nose Design, i wouldnt be surprised if some teams (Williams, McLaren) went back to a circa 1992-1994 style design with the nose not being a rasied nose design, meaning there may be aero advantages sought that way. BMW and Hondas design for their "Antlers" and "Elephant ears" may just be leagal if they are slimmed down a little.

- Rear Wing design, teams may eventually go to a single plain design like that Brabham BMW BT54 Turbo from 1985, but with a slimmer design to try and maximise aero grip at the rear, with a better design of the rear diffuser.

- Wider Track, Coultard has already said that he is looking forward to it as there will be more grip, but i feel that there will be many older drivers that have driven with the old track width that will flourish with it, some of the new drivers havnt driven a car with the 2M wide cars, meaning they wont know how to manage the fact there is more grip there.

- Teams discovering something new will instantly have a 0.5 to 0.8 of a second over their rivals, but this will be good as i belive that teams can only design a change to a major part of the car 2 times in the season, meaning there will be more emphisis on honing those small aero parts first.

The only thing i have difficulty grasping for the 2009 regs, is how the hell are the drivers gonna change the front wing angle of attack, by a stick or by a motorised method???

Those are just some of my views.
ESPImperium

Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

ESPImperium wrote:Rersonally i can see a few problems for the teams on 2009 cars;

- KERS, a untried tech development in the F1 world, may turn out good in the end, but i suspect that the first 40-60% of next season there will be many KERS related retirements.

Yes that's possible, that will bring a bit more random into the races.And hopefully a bit more technology freedom.

ESPImperium wrote:- Old developments in say the R26 Mass Damper or BAR Honda torque transfer thhing on the front wheels may be concidered to be a "Energy recovery system" uhder the KERS regs, whitch means that drivers will get those systems "back" to some extent.

Those systems are still there in close forms, so that won't change too much.

ESPImperium wrote:- Tyres, there will be more risk marbeling/graining/blisters when the drivers push their cars too hard, not looking after the tyres meaning they will become moving chicanes, also drivers will try that "extra lap" on them and a tyre will explode or just delaminate completly or do a Lewis at China.

Slicks are far less prone to graining. Blistering can occur but again less than on grooves, so marbles will be less too.

ESPImperium wrote:- Nose Design, i wouldnt be surprised if some teams (Williams, McLaren) went back to a circa 1992-1994 style design with the nose not being a rasied nose design, meaning there may be aero advantages sought that way. BMW and Hondas design for their "Antlers" and "Elephant ears" may just be leagal if they are slimmed down a little.

That's a bit too early to say, except the elephant ear, no they're illegal for next year.
Even ferrari nose hole is banned.

ESPImperium wrote:- Rear Wing design, teams may eventually go to a single plain design like that Brabham BMW BT54 Turbo from 1985, but with a slimmer design to try and maximise aero grip at the rear, with a better design of the rear diffuser.

you can't do that too much because the rear wing is shortened by 20cm. Too maintain the balance you need to have downforce from there.

ESPImperium wrote:- Wider Track, Coultard has already said that he is looking forward to it as there will be more grip, but i feel that there will be many older drivers that have driven with the old track width that will flourish with it, some of the new drivers havnt driven a car with the 2M wide cars, meaning they wont know how to manage the fact there is more grip there.

Unfortunately (or not) the 2meters wide cars have been droped, the next year cars will be the same witdh as now.

ESPImperium wrote:- Teams discovering something new will instantly have a 0.5 to 0.8 of a second over their rivals, but this will be good as i belive that teams can only design a change to a major part of the car 2 times in the season, meaning there will be more emphisis on honing those small aero parts first.

Well, the 2009 regs are not exactly freer than now. It is true we may see some increasing gaps because of KERS integration but i doubt it will be huge gaps.

ESPImperium wrote:The only thing i have difficulty grasping for the 2009 regs, is how the hell are the drivers gonna change the front wing angle of attack, by a stick or by a motorised method???

By a knob, just like they control de brake bias and differentials.
Ogami musashi

Joined: 13 Jun 2007

Ogami musashi wrote:
ESPImperium wrote:Rersonally i can see a few problems for the teams on 2009 cars;

- KERS, a untried tech development in the F1 world, may turn out good in the end, but i suspect that the first 40-60% of next season there will be many KERS related retirements.

Yes that's possible, that will bring a bit more random into the races.And hopefully a bit more technology freedom.

ESPImperium wrote:- Old developments in say the R26 Mass Damper or BAR Honda torque transfer thhing on the front wheels may be concidered to be a "Energy recovery system" uhder the KERS regs, whitch means that drivers will get those systems "back" to some extent.

Those systems are still there in close forms, so that won't change too much.

ESPImperium wrote:- Tyres, there will be more risk marbeling/graining/blisters when the drivers push their cars too hard, not looking after the tyres meaning they will become moving chicanes, also drivers will try that "extra lap" on them and a tyre will explode or just delaminate completly or do a Lewis at China.

Slicks are far less prone to graining. Blistering can occur but again less than on grooves, so marbles will be less too.

ESPImperium wrote:- Nose Design, i wouldnt be surprised if some teams (Williams, McLaren) went back to a circa 1992-1994 style design with the nose not being a rasied nose design, meaning there may be aero advantages sought that way. BMW and Hondas design for their "Antlers" and "Elephant ears" may just be leagal if they are slimmed down a little.

That's a bit too early to say, except the elephant ear, no they're illegal for next year.
Even ferrari nose hole is banned.

ESPImperium wrote:- Rear Wing design, teams may eventually go to a single plain design like that Brabham BMW BT54 Turbo from 1985, but with a slimmer design to try and maximise aero grip at the rear, with a better design of the rear diffuser.

you can't do that too much because the rear wing is shortened by 20cm. Too maintain the balance you need to have downforce from there.

ESPImperium wrote:- Wider Track, Coultard has already said that he is looking forward to it as there will be more grip, but i feel that there will be many older drivers that have driven with the old track width that will flourish with it, some of the new drivers havnt driven a car with the 2M wide cars, meaning they wont know how to manage the fact there is more grip there.

Unfortunately (or not) the 2meters wide cars have been droped, the next year cars will be the same witdh as now.

ESPImperium wrote:- Teams discovering something new will instantly have a 0.5 to 0.8 of a second over their rivals, but this will be good as i belive that teams can only design a change to a major part of the car 2 times in the season, meaning there will be more emphisis on honing those small aero parts first.

Well, the 2009 regs are not exactly freer than now. It is true we may see some increasing gaps because of KERS integration but i doubt it will be huge gaps.

ESPImperium wrote:The only thing i have difficulty grasping for the 2009 regs, is how the hell are the drivers gonna change the front wing angle of attack, by a stick or by a motorised method???

By a knob, just like they control de brake bias and differentials.

Does that mean you can always change the wing angle? Then you can make the angle very small on the straights and very big in the corners.
Roderik

Joined: 4 May 2008

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