Adjustable Rear Wing (DRS)

[Ferraripilot]

By the look of it, I assumed a servo and adjoining mechanism is actuating the unit. Wouldn't a hydraulic unit be slower and difficult to package in that area?

[xpensive]

By the look of it, I assumed a servo and adjoining mechanism is actuating the unit. Wouldn't a hydraulic unit be slower and difficult to package in that area?

Hydraulics would with very little doubt be way too cumbersome and heavy to mount in the wing, besides rather slow with the long lines.
The way I undertand things the flap only has to positions anyway, why pneumatics should be both neat and fast.

Flat electrical servo-motors in the endplates could of course be another option.

[ringo]

Hydraulics aren't necessarily slow. Especially for such a light application.
They don't have to be mounted in the wing itself. Just the line needs to go to the wing with a little carbon or aluminum actuator i guess.

Pneumatics can be inaccurate with varying temp and are less efficient, since gasses are compressible.

A hydraulic take off can also be fitted readily to the gearbox hydraulics.
They also can lock in and hold steady, pneumatics can't do that as well.

[Tim.Wright]

Hydraulics would with very little doubt be way too cumbersome and heavy to mount in the wing, besides rather slow with the long lines

You talking about the same hydraulic sytem which can change gears in milliseconds?? I belive hydraulics would definately be the faster solution because there is no lag due to the build up of pressure in a compressible medium like there is with air.

Tim

[xpensive]

That all depends on the length of stroke and resistance in the lines to the actuator(s), pneumatics are virtally loss-free and
with the proper balance around the flap's pivot, it doesn't necessarily need that much pressure/force for the opening stroke.

Just a flask of compressed air, an electro-magnetic valve and a couple of plastic tubes to small actuators in the wing assy?

[Tim.Wright]

Where on earth are you going to put a balance around the flap pivot??

In terms of packaging its practically the same. I dont see why you think hydraulics are so bulky. An electro-magnetic valve, a couple of tubes and a smaal actuator. Whats the difference?

[forty-two]

Where on earth are you going to put a balance around the flap pivot??

In terms of packaging its practically the same. I dont see why you think hydraulics are so bulky. An electro-magnetic valve, a couple of tubes and a smaal actuator. Whats the difference?

Plus the hydraulic pressure is already available on tap fairly nearby from the compressor in the enginge bay. No need for a gas bottle that way..

But arguably, they'd need a greater overall volume of hydraulic fluid, and running lines high up into the RW would push the CG slightly rearwards and upwards from it's optimum.

I reckon some sort of electrical solution is probably the lightest option and the easiest to package.

[marcush.]

tbh Audi won a few 24h of leMons with pneumatic gearshift...so I´d think it has a few benefits ..
The pure electric /electronic or dumb actuator will be the heavy one in the range of say 250 to 350 grammes not counting cable and connector.Could be a electromagnetic device like a coil or a linear motor or even a geared drive.
with all systems you need some ways of indexing position,as the ECU needs the feedback for the lifted position and of course the activation of the device must be transformed from the enable signal (CAN?)coming from the ECU.pneumatics would need a new subsystem -new failure risks -so not the first choice(or would you dare to connect it to the pneumatic valvetrain?).
Hydraulics available ,moogvalves /actuators readily available...hm pure electric/electronic actuators also available but I´d think the cabling/connectors will be more heavy than a set of hard lines and nipples at the risc of fluid loss.
I´d guess a thorrow risk analysis will be needed to decide .

[ringo]

Where on earth are you going to put a balance around the flap pivot??

In terms of packaging its practically the same. I dont see why you think hydraulics are so bulky. An electro-magnetic valve, a couple of tubes and a smaal actuator. Whats the difference?

Plus the hydraulic pressure is already available on tap fairly nearby from the compressor in the enginge bay. No need for a gas bottle that way..

But arguably, they'd need a greater overall volume of hydraulic fluid, and running lines high up into the RW would push the CG slightly rearwards and upwards from it's optimum.

I reckon some sort of electrical solution is probably the lightest option and the easiest to package.

Electric step motor solution or micro switch will be heavier than a thin tube will oil in it. Renault have hydraulic, so do Williams and Ferrari.
I suspect redbull as well. Electric motors would just complicate things in the wet.

[marcush.]

come on ..it´s not THAT complicated to seal a motor and electronics enough to survive two hours of racing...thats pretty much automotive standards ip68 is reality ,validated .nothing to muck about :
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/w ... bNr=2.html

http://www.nidec-ma.com/de/customactuators.html

I have experience with one of the above suppliers in this very area and can confirm they have actuators in their portfolio able to do the job ....from the shelf at 270g and that´s nothing really special or fancy like EC or funky materials.
You could throw almost anything at this actuator (of course you need to specify what you want) but it can be PWM,LIN,CAN or voltage output.You get a proper position feedback (needed for the ECU to prove you are not using the flap when not allowed ,and you are only positions allowed by FIA)..so thats a short trip to your Porsche dealer fork out 200€ and modest electronic s knowledge (how to activate the unit and set limits and you are done on the same day...

[PlatinumZealot]

A motor/brake needed to push up the wing against aero resistance would need substaintial gearing.

[The FOZ]

A motor/brake needed to push up the wing against aero resistance would need substaintial gearing.

Ballscrew on a stepper wouldn't have much trouble at all...

[PlatinumZealot]

Similar to the ones used in the front wing?
How fast where those things. Any body Got a video?

[ringo]

Well i don't suppose a strong enough motor can fit in a 10mm wide wing anyway.
Water sealing can still be an issue in that small a space, provide there is a motor out there that can fit in the endplate.

[xpensive]

This is interesting, a separate thread would be nice, given that certain members can refrain from getting too involed through committment to his/hers initial position, without the ability to see the benefits of other solutions than their own preference?

Anyway, what I meant with, "balanced around the flap's pivot", was of course with reference to be aerodynamically so, trying to counter the full aero-load at 200 km/h or whatever with pneumatics would obviously be quite futile.

Having said that, judging from the pictures, I suspect the W02 being electrically operated by flat-motors 1n the endplates?

Which teams ran a manouverable rear wing at Valencia anyway?