JB's driving style versus late apex and preserving tyres

[mariano]

To be fair a "circular" line as well as late apex should theoretically separate lateral from longitudinal load; though the straight-ish exit of a late apex would still have a bit of lateral loading.

But I do get what you're saying. Brake in a straight line (100% long.), circle the corner at a constant velocity; at the edge of grip; (100 lat.); and finally when the car is straight again power out (100% long.)

It's been said that some tyres (including the Pirellis this year) get saturated easily if you load it with both longitudinal AND lateral loading requirements (i.e. it's good with longitudinal alone, it's good with lateral alone, but if you mix the two you won't get the optimum lap time).

Autosport a few months back also mentioned this; and said that it was one of the reasons that Vettel has been so good on the Pirellis; he has been able to isolate the lateral from the longitudinal the best; and so can access a lot more grip while keeping the tyres quite intact; which really was his strength starting from Turkey

Please, can you tell me what number and month was that issue of Autosport, and how was the article called?
Thank you,
mariano

[olefud]

There are too many variable to get beyond generalities. But I’ve thought of early apex as being harder on tires in that it requires more abrupt turning but for a shorter time. Heating and wear tend to increase nonlinearly with more intense workload.

It’s been said, but, to put it succinctly, early apex will slow the car more so be sure the car has the power to come out of the corner faster from the earlier application of power. And a longer straight to make use of the exit speed also helps.

If you experiment on the track, keep in mind that, tactically, a late apex can leave the door open for an early-apex car to slip ahead. He’ll be parked -but parked in front of you.

[raymondu999]

Eh? Early apex is a bit of an amateur mistake is it not? However earlier application of power is synonymous with late apex rather than early. An early apex will take maxxive speeds to the apex but be (quite uselessly) slow on the exit

To be fair a "circular" line as well as late apex should theoretically separate lateral from longitudinal load; though the straight-ish exit of a late apex would still have a bit of lateral loading.

But I do get what you're saying. Brake in a straight line (100% long.), circle the corner at a constant velocity; at the edge of grip; (100 lat.); and finally when the car is straight again power out (100% long.)

It's been said that some tyres (including the Pirellis this year) get saturated easily if you load it with both longitudinal AND lateral loading requirements (i.e. it's good with longitudinal alone, it's good with lateral alone, but if you mix the two you won't get the optimum lap time).

Autosport a few months back also mentioned this; and said that it was one of the reasons that Vettel has been so good on the Pirellis; he has been able to isolate the lateral from the longitudinal the best; and so can access a lot more grip while keeping the tyres quite intact; which really was his strength starting from Turkey

Please, can you tell me what number and month was that issue of Autosport, and how was the article called?
Thank you,
mariano

I really do apologize; I forget what it was. I know that it is a 2011 article though. I think possibly it was a Mark Hughes piece. Or maybe it was from Autosport Plus... Idon't remember! Sorry

[olefud]

Early apex is not always a mistake just as late apex is not always faster. Early apex usually results in slower lap times but can be effective in passing. An early-apex car using later braking and a tighter line can pass an earlier braking, wider line, late-apex car to gain track position. A F-1 driver will cover a such a passing line by taking a slower line, but these tactical moves are subtle.

[raymondu999]

Yes, but as we often see the early apex guy gets knocked when the other guy gets to a late apex and cuts back on corner exit

[timbo]

As far as driver's styles it's interesting to compare this laps by Mika Hakkinen and Michael Schumacher.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxjAI4i0 ... re=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSDh11uz ... re=related[/youtube]
Note how they brake and turn into the Adelaide hairpin and second to last chicane.

[raymondu999]

Here's an excerpt from a Jenson Button feature in the new Autosport magazine:

“I am good on tyres, but there are also races where I’m bad,” he says. “In Korea, I wasn’t very good. It seems that when it’s a track that has a lot of traction, I can’t save the tyres more than anyone else. But when you have high-speed corners, I’m normally pretty good, like at Suzuka. Maybe it comes from karting? But everyone has done karting. It’s
difficult to know why there’s a difference but we all drive a little bit differently and plan our race differently. Well, some of us maybe don’t plan our race,
but some of us do.”

So why would it be that he's not so good at tyres in traction circuits? The main cause for deg/wear in traction circuits would be wheelspin on traction, and locking brakes, which we rarely see Button do. Could it be that there is something in the way he sets up his car balance, that inadvertently is softer on tyres?

Or could it be that maybe he sets up a bit of stability in the car; leading to a slight bit of understeer and a bit less speed he can carry through, which then means less degradation?

[Jersey Tom]

With drivers... be careful of taking what they say at face value.

[raymondu999]

Indeed. Especially at F1 level. But for the sake of discussion; let's assume here, very naively, that he IS telling the truth...

[mariano]

while JB brakes earlier, then carries more speed through in a more conventional racing line.

I don't know much but I remember clearly in an issue of F1 racing magazine that this was exactly the same as Schumacher's style (and Mansell's). That a bucket of dripping paint on their cars would draw the shortest line around the circuit. Right on the friction oval of tire grip, smooth transition from braking (long. grip) to cornering (lat. grip), right at the limit of the tire model. That was Schumacher's style on entry AND exit.

How is it that, if that is also Button's style, they are so far apart in performance (or are they?) hmm. I don't actually know.

Please, can you tell me what number, month and year was that issue of F1 Racing, and how was the article called?
Thank you,
mariano

Please can you tell me? Or can you scan the article?
And can you search the Autosport´s one?
Thank you,
mariano

[thisisatest]

Here's an excerpt from a Jenson Button feature in the new Autosport magazine:

“I am good on tyres, but there are also races where I’m bad,” he says. “In Korea, I wasn’t very good. It seems that when it’s a track that has a lot of traction, I can’t save the tyres more than anyone else. But when you have high-speed corners, I’m normally pretty good, like at Suzuka. Maybe it comes from karting? But everyone has done karting. It’s
difficult to know why there’s a difference but we all drive a little bit differently and plan our race differently. Well, some of us maybe don’t plan our race,
but some of us do.”

So why would it be that he's not so good at tyres in traction circuits? The main cause for deg/wear in traction circuits would be wheelspin on traction, and locking brakes, which we rarely see Button do. Could it be that there is something in the way he sets up his car balance, that inadvertently is softer on tyres?

Or could it be that maybe he sets up a bit of stability in the car; leading to a slight bit of understeer and a bit less speed he can carry through, which then means less degradation?

maybe it's because on high traction circuits, everyone else isnt sliding and spinning and eating their tires like they do on low-traction circuits.

[raymondu999]

I think it's the opposite of what you're saying, in that by "high traction," JB means circuits with high traction requirements - somewhere like Valencia or Singapore; rather than a circuit that GIVES high traction.

[gold333]

Please, can you tell me what number, month and year was that issue of F1 Racing, and how was the article called?
Thank you,
mariano

Hi, sorry for the late reply. Pff you ask me a difficult question. It was an issue where they had Schumacher as the main article. He was driving for Ferrari then. I really couldn't say which. Or it was the article that listed the 2 fastest men in F1 (Schumacher and Newey). But I think it was the first one. In the article Schumacher was explaining his speed, and he said most good drivers can get on the friction circle on corner exit, but he could do it on entry as well.

But going back to the Button issue, therehave always been drivers that preferred understeer and being gentle to oversteer. Prost was one. He hated an oversteering car and did not like throwing a car around (which was why he did not get the best out of the active Williams in the manner that Mansell did.) I wonder if there have ever been reports of Prost being easier on his tyres than say Senna or Hill.

But that diagram (conventional apex vs late braking early apex) has been used in the past to explain Senna's driving style as well. Senna called it a salvage manouver in his book where he would brake very late and drift the car into a sharp early turn (thereby turning into a corner earlier and being able to accelerate earlier, -> late apex). Most good F1 drivers could do this for hairpins, but he'd do it in medium speed corners as well (all the little seemingly random steering inputs Senna used to do, which weren't random at all).

[westech]

Hamilton's aggressive driving style Vs button smooth driving style.is it the driving style or the set up of the car which saves you and the tyres, as we've seen in the past few races, Button's car is chewing up the tyres well as LH manages his tyres constantly.

[myurr]

Hamilton's aggressive driving style Vs button smooth driving style.is it the driving style or the set up of the car which saves you and the tyres, as we've seen in the past few races, Button's car is chewing up the tyres well as LH manages his tyres constantly.

This is far too complex a subject to get meaningful debate on here, but the simple answer is yes. Driving style and setup of the car relate to tyre wear.

All the quotes and articles that I've come across relating to Button's struggles indicate that he is having trouble properly warming the tyres before he starts to damage them which then leads to more problems. Hamilton has always been able to lean on the tyres and generate heat in them, but it's only recently that he's been able to consistently then back off a little and drive more smoothly to extend their life. This seems to work really well for him at the moment.

Vettel was doing something similar last year, using the huge downforce of the Red Bull to bang in a couple of quick laps, get the tyres up to optimum temperature, and then 'cruise' with them doing consistently quick lap times but never straining the tyres.

Button, in contrast, seems to struggle to put enough load through the tyres when they're cold to heat them without sliding the car around and overheating and damaging the surface without generating the core temperatures. With a poorly heated tyre he then fails to get the levels of grip the tyres should be giving, which leads to less load and more sliding, which then exacerbates the problem.

This is going to be a factor of both setup and driving style, not one or other in isolation.

Edit: there is another aspect of these tyres that has recently cropped up in a couple of reports. They don't give particularly good feedback to the driver - most of the drivers are struggling to detect when the rear wheels just start slipping; and Massa was reported to have recently made front torsion bar changes to improve the feeling he gets from the front tyres, and this has contributed massively to his improved performance. Both factors were mentioned during the Canadian GP weekend on Sky, but I forget who exactly discussed each point.